405 Mi16 Overheating problem
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 405 Mi16 Overheating problem

    Hi,

    I have a 405 Mi16 (1991) which only has its fans (both) come on at around 98 degrees C. It runs until the temp drops to about 95 degrees C. Iíve been told that one of the fans should come on earlier than 98 degrees. Iíve had it looked at several times by various Peugeot dealer with no luck (while having large sums of money extracted from me in the process).

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    Is there anyone out there that has a circuit diagram of the fan wiring (including the three relays mounted at the front of the car and the pin out of the Motronic m 1.3 and how it all connect together?

    Has anyone had any experience fixing such a problem?

  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Have a plough through this as regards your pin outs etc; I'm pretty sure they're in there somewhere.

    http://www.vectorbd.com/peugeot/bosch.html

    As regards the fans, I have a BX 16V and both fans operate on it. They have a thermo fan switch located in the right hand side of the radiator about 3/4 way down in a T piece where the hose connects. This causes the fans to come on in two stages and cuts in prior to 100 on high speed. I have had some say the Mi16 has this switch whilst others reckon it doesn't. It has 3 pins on the actual plug and can be bridged to check if the fans are operating.
    There can of course be other reasons for the inoperation of the fans including relays and fan speed controllers, so it will require some systematic fault diagnosing to sort it but non the less, shouldn't really be all that big & involved job.
    I hope that points you in the right direction.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    Wow this motor certainly seems to have its fair share of cooling issues!

    When Alan says check the right hand side of the radiator, don't do what I did and look on the right hand side when standing in front of the car I felt like an idiot when I realised where it actually was.

    I never got a chance to test my switch, I've had it replaced for piece of mind and hopefully should get the car back today.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! KRISKARRERA's Avatar
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    Sounds like the resistor for the rad fans has burnt out hence u only getting the faster speed that comes on later.

    By the way, does anyone know how to test the fans on 405 Mi16s that have aircon..... they don't use a switch in the radiator thats for sure.
    405 MI16
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    Le lion va de la force ŗ la force!

  5. #5
    Tadpole
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    Wow, thanks for the advice chaps!

    Looking at the your pin outs that the link leads to it appears that (at least for the BMW) that the Motronic 1.3 doesnít control the fans. Is this true for Air conditioned Peugeot Mi16 cars?

    Iíve checked the temp sensor but shorting out the leads doesnít appear to turn on the fans! Perhaps Iím doing it all wrong?

    So where do I find the resistor And doe anyone actually have a cct dig for the fan cct?

    Regards,

    David Heatley.

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Default Re Series 1 Mi16 Overheating

    This is my first reply and I hope it's received ok!!

    The series 1 Mi16 fan both come on on either low speed or high speed.

    This is achieved by switching the fans in series for low speed and parallel for high speed. The 3 relays across teh front of the car behind the grill do the actual switching of the fan power supplies.

    The relays in turn are controlled by a small control unit called a Bitron box which is the company that make it. This is located under the steering column inside the car. the bitron box received information from a sensor near the thermostat as to the engine temperature. It is a 2 wire sensor and not 2 position switch as in BX. The resistance changes with temp and the bitron box uses this to determine when the fans turn an and at what speed.

    The Bitron box also considers what the air conditioning is doing as well as teh fans are required to cool the condensor and with the AC on the logic changes some what.

    I can supply a circuit diag of same and some test proceedures for you.

    Please provide a fax as I don't have the circuits etc in electronic form.

    Dmarco

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    This is my first reply and I hope it's received ok!!

    And what a reply it is .......personally I m usless when it comes to electrics....I understand my + and -...but thats about it....You on the other hand ceartinly SOUND like u know what u r talking about....I m sure many will appriciate your replys, and any other imput you can contribute.....So welcome to the forum (not manu of us UP at1:22 AM so I ll have the privilage)....Hope u visit us regularly....


    cheers


    dino


  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! KRISKARRERA's Avatar
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    Excellent Reply, cheers mate! I always wondered how it works.
    405 MI16
    170bhp
    Le lion va de la force ŗ la force!

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Dmarco,

    Many thanks for that. Fantastic This sounds like what I have in my car is just this. As I have two fans and thus no resistor. You are right. To get the lower speed the fans are run in series and for the faster speed run in parallel. This is switched by various switching configurations with the three relays that are located behind the front grill. The problem that I have been having is how these relays are controlled and how this interfaces into the air conditioning. So it's the Bitron box! Thanks for that Iíll start looking under the steering column inside the car for that then. Does this also control the temp gauge and the low water level indicator as well? And the fuses? Where do I find them? In the engine bay or under the steering column and are they labelled?

    My Fax number is (03) 9693 4117 please send it to the attention of David Heatley.

    Many thanks!

  10. #10
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    Phew Marco, good reply. Id like a copy of the diagram etc as Ive had similar problems. I was told by Alpine in canberra that the wiring for the fans is different in OZ and is covered in the A/C manual, but Ive never been able to get a copy. fax Number is 0244742919 attention GregS Ps could someone mount this electronically??
    Last edited by GregS; 24th June 2004 at 09:28 PM.

  11. #11
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    Marco,

    Opps, the fax number I gave you today I've found doesnít come to our office floor any more. I'll get my new one to you tomorrow. Terribly sorry.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    It's a fail safe method, so that if the sensor goes open circuit (eg lead comes off, or high resistance joint), both fans will turn on at high speed. Under normal conditions, low speed is 98 deg, high speed is 102 deg. To test, just disconnect the sensor. It's under the thermostat housing. I'll try to post the specs.

    There's four possible equipment levels, depending on the type of 405:

    A - ventilation/heating
    B - ventilation/heating with electronic temperature regulation
    C - ventilation/heating, A/C
    D - ventilation/heating, A/C with electronic temperature regulation

    All Mi16's are type D.

    H114 is the Bitron unit
    M891 is the thermistor sensor

    Hope this helps!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 405 Mi16 Overheating problem-d-ventilation.jpg   405 Mi16 Overheating problem-d-ventilation2.jpg  
    Last edited by PeterT; 24th June 2004 at 09:44 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Default Re 405 Mi16 Q's

    Yes Alpine are quite right.
    Peugeot engineer the cooling system to suit the climate of the country they are to be sold in.
    Hence in oz we get 2 fans where as the poms get only one from memory.
    It also depends on what type of AC is fitted as well ie a simple "manual" system or a more full on "climate control" system.
    All this results in many possible systems!
    The diags I have and proceedures are from my days working in a Pug dealership and are for the oz spec cars.
    I'll fax when I come up for air. I run an independent workshop in Perth and am VERY busy at the moment!

    Dmarco

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    many thnaks for that.

    My Fax number is (03) 9639 9023 attn: David Heatley sory for the incorrect one being posted previouslly...

  15. #15
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Dmarco,

    Out of curiosity, did they ever import a model of the Mi16 with the three pin thermoswitch as in the BX16V that you are aware of?
    Reason I ask is that a few months back someone who had a similar problems contacted me off list due to a mod the Citroen came up with to reduce overheating and asked if it was also available for the Pug. I contacted a friend in the French car spares business overseas who spoke to a Pug mechanic & came back quoting the part number similar to the Cit. Every body thought I was bonkers as they reckoned it didn't exist, yet the overseas guys were just as insistant that it did.


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmarco
    The diags I have and proceedures are from my days working in a Pug dealership and are for the oz spec cars.
    Dmarco
    That's what I just posted above.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! KRISKARRERA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmarco
    Yes Alpine are quite right.
    Peugeot engineer the cooling system to suit the climate of the country they are to be sold in.
    Hence in oz we get 2 fans where as the poms get only one from memory.

    Dmarco
    Nope! All UK 405 Mi16s had twin fans.
    405 MI16
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    Le lion va de la force ŗ la force!

  18. #18
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRISKARRERA
    Nope! All UK 405 Mi16s had twin fans.
    Even the ones without air/con?

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! KRISKARRERA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    It's a fail safe method, so that if the sensor goes open circuit (eg lead comes off, or high resistance joint), both fans will turn on at high speed. Under normal conditions, low speed is 98 deg, high speed is 102 deg. To test, just disconnect the sensor. It's under the thermostat housing.
    Can Peugeot provide another sensor for hotter countries? They supply a few different ones for the sensor in the radiator on the non-aircon models so I assume they do the same for the cars with aircon??
    405 MI16
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    Le lion va de la force ŗ la force!

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! KRISKARRERA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Even the ones without air/con?

    Alan S
    Good point! (Not sure, though when I had my old 405 Mi16 engine put into a 309 GTI it had twin fans so obviously some Pugs from this era definately did have twin fans even without aircon.)
    405 MI16
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    Le lion va de la force ŗ la force!

  21. #21
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    The reason I raised that point was that we have a series one BX16V without air/con - one fan and a BX16V with air/con - 2 fans and as the fan thermocontrols are diffferent between the Pug & the Cit I wondered if this system may also be different although it would be strange if they were.


    Alan S
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  22. #22
    Tadpole
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    Default Mi16 with thermoswitch in radiator

    [QUOTE=Alan S]Dmarco,

    I'm not aware of such a vehcile in oz, on either S1 or S2 Mi16 or any other Pug of the era.
    Quite possibly cars overseas with different cooling systems to ours could well have had the BX system or something similar to it. A lot of the Renaults have a dual switch.
    In my experince the Mi16's don't really suffer overheating problems PROVIDED the cooling system is in good condition.
    Provided the fans work properly make sure the radiator is not partially blocked, either feel for cold spots or have it checked by a radiator specialist if in doubt.
    One thing to be awre of is the higher temp thermostats fitted to the Mi16. Can make bleeding of the cooling system difficult on a warm to hot day.
    I've found that while waiting for the thermostat to open after filling and bleeding, if it tends to boil before the thermostat opens, turn on the air conditioning, this will force the fans to come on low speed and should stop it boiling over.

  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Hi all,

    Well I sorted out the temperature issue last but now I have a new problem. The two fans are switching on full speed intermittently for a few seconds at a time when the temperature is just starting to creep past the 70 degree mark. Then they operate erratically from then on. I can hear a relay chattering noise from just under the steering column when it happens. I'll take the diagram in this posting and have a look at the cct. The car does it while it is parked so I'm assuming that at this point it's NOT an intermittent connection in the wiring, more an issues with the electronic temperature regulation unit or sensor(s)Ö

    If anyone has experienced this issue please let me know. Thanks.

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