How to replace rear 504 Crossmember supports
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    How to replace rear 504 Crossmember supports

    As the subject says I am going to attempt to replace the crossmember supports on the rear.

    The four rubber mounts between the cross member and underneath the rear seat?

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    Is there a special way to do this. An easy way.

    Can you just raise one side of the car, or does the car have to be raised form the back raising the whole rear end of the car.

    Many thanks

    James
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I think you'll have to jack it all up... but I'd caution against undoing the shocks. Let them contain the springs and work from there.

    Mind you, I've never done this job...

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    remove rear seat
    undo the 3 bolts on either side that you will find under the rear seat
    jack the car up and you can get a lever in to pull the cross member down enough after you undo the bolts holding the bush in place and remove the bush
    refitting is the reversal of removing
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  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The real question, rambo, seems to be whether or not he has to undo both sides at once...

    That would be the case wouldn't it?

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Yes, that was my question,

    Can one side be done at a time?

    I have heard that it is hard to get to the bushes if only one side is raised?

    I think i may have to find a mechanic's car jack.

    thanks

    James
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    1975 504 GL

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Jack the car up... stack two wheels under it and then use timber to make up the right height for a strategically placed (ie on a spot that will hold the weight) stand.

    Probably best if you're doing both sides at once to leave the wheels on, and have them just touching the ground... then you can roll them to get the location of the bolt holes as you're reassembling.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Yes both wheels in the air seems to be the way to go.

    Will go and pick up the bushels, tie rod end and front roll Bar support washers on monday.

    Another interesting week

    Thanks

    James

    <small>[ 26 July 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Shobbz ]</small>
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  8. #8
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I've done this job a few times.

    Here's my method:

    1. DON'T raise the car at all. Leave the wheels on and in contact with the ground, etc. Make sure all FOUR wheels can't roll backward or forward.
    2. Put a floor jack under the centre of the cross member
    3. Undo the nuts under the back seat.
    4. Lower the cross member down using the floor jack to control its movement. BE CAREFUL not to let the crossmember drop so far that the bolts come out of their holes in the body. It makes it alot easier if you have the cross member lowered only just enough so that just the tips of the bolts still poke through the bottom edge of the holes. Make sure your jack is not one which tends to creep downwards under load over time. Put chocks under the crossmember if necessary.
    5. Then undo the mountings and replace the rubber bits and reassemble, so that the bolts are again just poking through the ends of the holes.
    6. Jack the crossmember back up and tighten the nuts under the back seat.
    JOB FINISHED!

    This method can make the job very quick, providing you take precautions to make sure nothing can creep out of alignment (wheels choked, etc) while you're replacing the rubbers.

    It is also worth noting that often the aluminium blocks to which the rubbers are bolted, have worn out mount holes in them, from many years of loose mounts, in which case they may need to be replaced, or welded or a bigger washer placed on them so that the nuts can tighten on the flogged out holes.

    Dave

    <small>[ 27 July 2003, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Thanks,

    Will do as you say dave, i like the ide of not having to jack the car up

    thanks again

    James
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    One thing worth noting is that sometimes one side of the cross member can drop lower than the other. If this happens then chock the lowest side when it gets to the stage when the bolts are still just sticking through the bottoms of the holes. Then lower the jack so that the other side comes down to the same level.

    To help avoid this situation, make sure the jack is as close to the centre of the rear cross member as possible.

    Dave

    <small>[ 28 July 2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I can't stress enough how important it is to make sure the wheels are well chocked so they can't roll forward or back, AND be very careful not to bump the body while the crossmember is down, because the body will be just floating on the rear springs and the whole thing can get out of alignment very easily. If things do get out of alignment, you can get things back by levering the wheels forward or back until the bolts line up, but it can be a lot of mucking around, so as I said take great care to make sure that nothing is bumped and nothing moves and the job should be a quick one.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Dave,

    Thanks again for the tips. I have an old Truck jack with I will use and many bricks to use as chocks.

    Getting the parts hopefully this afternoon.

    Looking forward to the demise of the thump at the back and the high speed noise

    Thanks

    James
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    davemcbean
    [

    It is also worth noting that often the aluminium blocks to which the rubbers are bolted, have worn out mount holes in them, from many years of loose mounts, in which case they may need to be replaced, or welded or a bigger washer placed on them so that the nuts can tighten on the flogged out holes.

    Dave[/QB]
    Been there, done that. The guy who I found to weld up the alloy looked at me a bit funny, but I got him fill the very much enlarged hole with alloy weld, and then re drilled the hole.
    I did this after I searched for a long time for a good one at the wreckers, which is how I now know that most 504/505s eventually chew them out.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I will just hope that the holes are in good condition.

    NOt sure if i could face another problem

    James
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  15. #15
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Shobbz:
    I will just hope that the holes are in good condition.

    NOt sure if i could face another problem

    James
    Hope is not enough. The holes are almost always worn.

    If you have movement or noise in the rear cross member area it is usually due to loose bolts and worn holes rather than broken rubber mounts.

    The Peugeot factory notes on building 504 rally cars recommends applying Loctite to these bolts to prevent them coming loose (why didn't they do this at the factory! )

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Well i have replaced the right hand side.

    Was not fun, the holes were in pretty good condition, rusted nuts but these things happen.

    I made use of the threaded hole in the top of the block to "forcefully" pull the cross member back up.

    The LEft hand side was and always has been the problem. When hitting even the smallest hole on the road there was always a sound much like the shock bottoming out, which led me to replace the shocks a while back.

    Upon taking the right hand side of the cross member down I saw that the two bolts that hold the frame for the bushes has come loose and had a gap of about a cm!!!! This has been the problem all along. The nuts securingthe cross member to the body were totally rusted and required treatement with the concrete chisel and a small sledge, the threads are okay though phew.

    The problem is that the one of the nuts that hold the bracket for the supports has broken off. There is a little protruding but attemts with an extraction tool and multi grips and masses of oil have proven to be un successful.

    Yet another part to replace, or any more idea's on how to remove it?

    Heat? as the bracket is an aluminium alloy? and the nut is steel? would they come apart?

    thanks

    James

    P.S sorry about the length, just been a long day.
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    1975 504 GL

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    The noise is back.

    Sounds much like it did before i replaced the rear mounts.

    I won't lie the car has been doing some hard driving these last few months and the ramp gutters and metal speed bump thingy's that it goes over are not smooth.

    Could the mnounts have come loose? The holes were not in fantastic nic last time, might be time for another look see.

    Could the new rear shockies have created more pressure on the mounts?

    I can't see anything else loose btw.

    poor pug

    shobbz
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Strange noise today.

    Like a low grumbling sound coming from the back of the car.

    Only at low speeds.

    Bearing seems okay?

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 504 rear X member mounts

    I've skimmed thru the last hundred lines and agree with Dave but not sure if Dave said both sides at the same time or one side at a time.

    Better to do one side at a time. If you drop both sides at the same time and the car moves for what ever reason the rear springs will push the rear X member well away from the three mounting holes. By changing one side at a time the X member will be held in place by the fixed side. I've changed these mounts and you do not need to jack up the rear.

    In the late 70's I had a ph call from a club friend who had dropped both sides to change both rear mounts and the rear springs pushed the rear X member away from the holes in the body by over 30cms. We used my hand winch that was attached to the front & rear X member's to pull the rear member fwd to line up the large stiuds to the holes in the body.

    It was an interesting afternoon.

    Steve V6..



    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    Strange noise today.

    Like a low grumbling sound coming from the back of the car.

    Only at low speeds.

    Bearing seems okay?

    shobbz
    Steve V6 ..
    404,504Ti, 406SV.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz

    The problem is that the one of the nuts that hold the bracket for the supports has broken off. There is a little protruding but attemts with an extraction tool and multi grips and masses of oil have proven to be un successful.

    Yet another part to replace, or any more idea's on how to remove it?

    Heat? as the bracket is an aluminium alloy? and the nut is steel? would they come apart?

    thanks

    James

    P.S sorry about the length, just been a long day.

    hmmmmmm, heat will help to remove the bolt, and plenty of crc/wd40..................BUT BUT BUT, be very careful when heating aluminium, because it doesnt glow like steel when it gets hot, it just sits there and youll think its not hot enough, and youll give it more and more and then itll just melt instantly, without changing colour, and turn into a molten blob...........use heat as a very very last resort.............

    definatly try an easyout first

    or use a sharp centre pop to back the bolt out by tapping it around...




    clunking sound still there? how are the trailing arm bushes? as in, the bushes where the arm pivots on the crossmember? check shockabsorber mounts for slop..........check diff housing mounts for slop, i've seen a 504 where the diff mounts have saged down just enough so that the tourqe shaft bumped on the crossmember....

    check that the crossmember bolts are infact tightned up hard, as sometimes they can feel really tight but havnt accually pulled the crossmember all the way up to the floor...........to check this, take out the rear seat and sit in the back with hands on nuts (get your mind out of the gutter ), while someone drives backwards and forward over the gutter, they wont jump up and down, but, if they arent done all the way up, you will notice a differance in the way the body reacts to a bump compared to the bolts.

  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    As the subject says I am going to attempt to replace the crossmember supports on the rear.

    The four rubber mounts between the cross member and underneath the rear seat?

    Is there a special way to do this. An easy way.

    Can you just raise one side of the car, or does the car have to be raised form the back raising the whole rear end of the car.

    Many thanks

    James
    if you are intererest i cant email the way Peugeot done the job just contact me

    505 turbot

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    It appears to be the rear sway bar mounts.

    All round they are shot and i can grab the bar and shake eyemount quite eaily.

    Eai nor anyone else appears to stock replacements?

    May have to manufacture a replacement.

    Now for a really stupid question.................

    Can i drive without a rear sway bar for a couple of days? Silly i know but car = transport to work.

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    After Looking on the eai web site I have found

    Rear Castor Bar Bush and Rear Wishbone Bushes?

    Are they the bushes that hole the rear sway bar in place.

    Sway bar = castor bar?

    thanks

    shobbz
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! 123abc's Avatar
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    castor bar must meen sway bar, because there's nothing else under there other then a sway bar and two trailing arms (wishbones)......

    i would say that you should leave the swaybar in the car and put up with the rattle until you get to fix it, just purely for a safety thing, otherwise you could end up inadvertantly loosing the rear end out the side on a corner and that could be disasterous, esspesially if you hit someone and the insurance becomes void because they would deem the pug unroadworthy without a swaybar........of course this is a worst case senario, so best to leave it in and everytime you hit a bump, just grin and bare it

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Default Worn Holes In 504 Rear Aluminium Brackets

    Quote Originally Posted by davemcbean
    Hope is not enough. The holes are almost always worn.

    If you have movement or noise in the rear cross member area it is usually due to loose bolts and worn holes rather than broken rubber mounts.

    The Peugeot factory notes on building 504 rally cars recommends applying Loctite to these bolts to prevent them coming loose (why didn't they do this at the factory! )

    Dave


    The studs on rubber mounts move in the aluminum brackets, this seems to happen no matter how tight the fixing nuts are done up.

    The result is oversize irregular holes in the brackets. Easily checked: put on the handbrake and gently disengage the clutch, a helper will see the cross member move and hear clunking.

    There is a better fix than locktite, which does fill the oversize hole but makes disassembly later a PITA. If the hole is really enlarged it won't work.

    The fix I used on three 504s, was to find a piece of heavy wall mild steel pipe with an inside diameter the size of the studs (10mm ??), then drill the worn hole in thealuminium bracket a bit smaller than the pipe outside diameter. Chamfer the tube and hammer or press in in with some locktite. Cut the tube off and file flush both sides. You made need to clean up the inside with drill.

    This then gives a metal bushing for the stud to to go and it won't chew the aluminium out ever again, even it moves a bit. A very permanent fix.

    There a a Peugeot part that you can make the metal bush out of, a sleeve for a rubber bush somewhere, but I can't remember exactly where. I think it a 403 or 404 part.

    Good luck.

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