75 504GL Sedan Rear Brake Calipers/Handbrake Not Working, How to Lubricate/Service - Page 3
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  1. #51
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    It's the Master Cyclinder.

    The front part, the hose for the rear brakes does not work. No fluid comes out when brakes are pumped.

    Options?

    1. So can this be fixed by me? Would this involve me pulling the cyclinder apart? Would putting a kit in solve the problem, or could rust etc make this opperation unreliable?

    2.Replace the master cyclinder?

    3.Smack the thing till it works? Could this actually work? What is the likely cause for only part of the master cyclinder to work. The rear hose for the front brakes works fine?

    more arghhhhhhhhhhhh

    thanks

    shobbz

    <small>[ 14 October 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Shobbz ]</small>

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  2. #52
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    So it's a tandem system?

    Well, in that case, top the reservoir up right so that fluid will run over the spillway into the front section... I think this might be your problem.

    You can't always see if there's fluid in the front section.

  3. #53
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    The fluid is fully topped up, but for some reason the front part of the cyclinder does not draw any fluid??

    shobbz
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  4. #54
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Bleed the front brakes down so you put most of the fluid into a container, then remove the reservoir and see if you can find a blockage.

    That will be a messy job. Leave the lid on, be prepared to cover up the holes in the bottom as soon as you get it out of the rubber grommets.

    It's only a small hole feeding the master cylinder...

  5. #55
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    davemcbean:
    pugrambo:
    a 75 model it should have a tandem master on
    I've seen very early 76 cars with a single master cylinder and early type struts, but later early 76 cars (i.e. still before july) with the tandem system and later type struts. The only way I can explain this is that in Australia, the later struts and tandem system was introduced sometime in early 1976. I think in other countries it may have been earlier. I think all US model 504s and some late 404s had a tandem system.

    Dave
    I should point out that I was using the government definition of year model here (compliance plate date) rather than the manufacturing dates on the mechanical components (which can be made 6 months or more before the car is actually assembled). In countries like Austrlia were the cars were built in complete knocked down kit (CKD kit) form, it sometimes occurs that there are parts in them of different dates.

    Year models can be even more confusing on the 505, because in addition to the dates on the parts and the date on the compliance plate there is another date on the build plate which tells you what month the car was assembled.

    In France, the date on the parts and the date of assembly are very close together, so it makes sense to give the year model based on the date of the parts, but the logic of doing so on CKD kit versions is a subject of debate.

    The date on the rego and insurance papers is based on the compliance plate date, so that's generally the date I use.

    The USA is really weird. They often date cars made and sold in the last half of a year by the following year's name. I think it started off as a marketing thing associated with the never ending yearly updates they have over there, but it's just plain silly if you ask me.

    Dave
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  6. #56
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by davemcbean
    <strong>The USA is really weird. They often date cars made and sold in the last half of a year by the following year's name. I think it started off as a marketing thing associated with the never ending yearly updates they have over there, but it's just plain silly if you ask me.
    Yeah, but they've had a lot of practice...

    I'm sure I've seen mention that this marketing practice goes back to the thirties, possibly the late twenties.

    Before that there weren't yearly updates... or not so significantly.

  7. #57
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    [
    I'm sure I've seen mention that this marketing practice goes back to the thirties, possibly the late twenties.
    .
    Yeah as far as Ford USA goes it definitely goes back to about 1930.

    Dave

    <small>[ 14 October 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
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  8. #58
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Argrgghghgh.

    Well it would seem that something still not right??

    The rear pistons still cling, not lock on to the rear discs?

    I took the master cyclinder apart, no rust, no scoring, perfect nic. The washers look a little worn, and the grease in there was all gone and attracking dirt. A metho clean and rubber greasing later and the master cyclinder seems to work well.

    Both rear and front systems work, well there is fluid at least.

    Everything is greased, lubricated, cleaned, shined, cursed...... u name it

    Could the washers in the master cyclinder need replacing? There are 4 washers in there, and apparently a new kit costs $40!!!!!!!!!!!

    Not happy jan. I am trying to track down another mster cyclinder but they seem to be around the same price range, so the rekit sounds like the better option.

    Would the master cyclinder be the problem? ie not enough pressure to draw the pistons back?

    it continues

    thanks again

    shobbz
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  9. #59
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The master cylinder doesn't draw the pistons back... they knock back as the slightly imperfect machining of the disc pushes the pads away the next revolution or two after you release the brakes.

  10. #60
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Really? Cool, might not be the master cyclinder then.

    So how does the handbrake release then? What pushes it back in? Does the rachet pull it back?

    So if the pistons are not sticking, the handbrake works, adn the master seems to work?

    Could the pads just be new and taking their time to wear in? I hope its this and if so it happens soon. Car feels like it is dragging an ancor and the rear wheels are heating up a fair bit.

    Worried that this extra strain will hurt the motor, costing a lot more than this rear business has cost so far.

    I know that I ask a lot of questions, but I believe in this car, if it fails I fail. If I succeed it stays whole and lives on. When it works its just too good to scrap

    thanks again

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

  11. #61
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Just a thought... the master cylinder, could it be out of a wagon?

    If so, there might be a valve to retain pressure in the rear lines. Or it might be there because it came in the kit someone used to rebuild it some time.

    This is necessary with drum brakes to prevent the collapse of the wheel cylinder rubbers. Discs, of course, not only don't need it, but they must not have it or the brakes won't come off.

  12. #62
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Where would this valve be?

    I am not sure anout the origins of the master cyclinder, It looked like the one in the book? ie internally?

    The brakes have worked before. Do the 505 and 504 calipers have different compression rates? I ask because one side is stiffer than the other? Could they be counter balancing one another? One creating too much pressure?

    It may be time to spend some cash and get it looked at............

    thanks

    shobbz
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  13. #63
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    And waste the effort you've put in so far? Never!

    No, the stiffness of the calipers is not an issue, unless the pistons are actually binding in the cylinders. Did you give them a good hone?

    The check valve is a tiny thing that fits in the outlet of the master cylinder, on the inside of it, of course.

    There simply shouldn't be one in a sedan master cylinder... go to a brake shop and get them to show you one.

  14. #64
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Hone the pistons?

    I cleaned them and greased them with rubber grease

    Do u mean smooth them down? Too scared. Gave the small bit of rush on the outside portion of one of the pistons a little rub with some wet and dry, very small rub.

    Could the problem be with the load compensator thing at the back? I adjusted this via instructions in the manual. Tommorrow I am going to wind it back, and see what happens.

    A while back we tried some awful rear pads. Hard as a rock. They ground down the rotors something terriable. The rotors cannot be machined they are so thin. COuld this be why the pistons are not being knocked in?

    Just a thought.

    Car dorve well today, still driving like I am towing an anchor, wheel rims still hot, all in a days fun I guess.

    thanks

    shobbz
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  15. #65
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Oh yes... that could be an issue...

    The pistons might be out so far that they are getting cocked to one side and can't go back.

    Newish pads should be all right, though, even with a thin disc.

  16. #66
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Will wind back that compensator tommorrow and see what happens.

    If it is turned back too far what is the worst that could happen?

    Does it engage the rear brakes before or after the front? Or just more pressure for the rear brakes?

    Does this car have a stepped system? Heard that it did. Ie LF, RR, RF, LR opposing sides brake first?

    I am sure that I am getting close.............

    thanks

    shobbz
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  17. #67
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Well the car seems to go,

    Some serious brake squealing when underway but i can live with that, give people notice that the pug is comming there way.

    Brakes work well, handbrake also working well.

    Maybe its the rotors, not enought kink to knock the pads back in? Will investigate better rotors at some stage.

    Car still being held back by all this, but not as bad as it was. Will just have to live with it. When I am cashed up I will get a pro to look at it.

    The pug moves once again

    thanks to everyone for their help, much appreciated.

    shobbz
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  18. #68
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Well the brakes seised up again,

    BUT NOW ITS FIXED.

    The wheels are normal temperature after a trip to uni.

    Hazaa.

    Today I replaced the Master cyclinder, (thanks Ray) and tuesday the compensator (again thanks Ray).

    Now it actually works. Brakes don't bind. Perhaps a little, but much better than before.

    Tis so fantastic, Brakes still have an air pocket somewhere as they are a little spongy, a job for the weekend.

    Brakes sometimes squeal when driving around, well that's life

    Thanks again to everyone for your help.

    If u can do it your self, have a go. A lot cheaper than the mechanic, and you know exactly what has been done.

    shobbz,

    one happy little camper.
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  19. #69
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    Congratulations Shobbz, you are a very patient man. I probably would have purchased a bicycle by now.

    With regards, to squeel, I'm told (can't remember where, might have been on Aussiefrogs) that it is to do with the metal back of the pads resonating against the metal of the callipers or pistons. It can supposedly be cured by smearing the back of the pads with special antisqueel goo (try Sparco or any other good auto parts supply firm) before fitting them.
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  20. #70
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Frogs4ever,

    Thanks, but patience is something that I have accepted is a given with these cars. Its part of the fun, the mystery, what will die next

    Anti squel goo huh, sound interesting. Might see if I can price some of that sort of stuff.

    It not that bad, but I have come this far, why not play a little bit more

    thanks

    shobbz
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  21. #71
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Ideally a moly grease for that job... but any grease will do for a while.

    Good on you Shobbz... glad to hear your last little spend worked out well. Hope I don't need a compensator in the near future...

  22. #72
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i think you bought 2 spare ones ray and they are here just in case you need one
    one came with the radiator and the other one was fuel injected
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  23. #73
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The fuel injected one has the older brake lines, does it not?

    There's one at Harden that can be rebuilt, I guess... but I'd love to examine Shobbz's one and find out what was wrong with it.

  24. #74
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    New compensator valves for the metric lines are still available. I got one from French Connection the other day for $99 including GST.

    But compensators for the older, non metric lines are very expensive.
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
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  25. #75
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm on a winner then?

    What am I bid?

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