306 or 405 for veg oil?
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Thread: 306 or 405 for veg oil?

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 306 or 405 for veg oil?

    Hi all,
    I'd like to ask for advice on which car to purchase to run on veggie oil. My story is that last year I bought a 205 Si from an Aussie frog member and have been getting it ready for RWC, though still requires some parts. My plan changed when I learned about the magic of the XUD9TE engine. It supposedly runs beautifully on pure veggie oil so I decided to buy (and have a mechanically minded mate install) a XUD9TE turbo diesel from a 405 or 306 in my 205.
    Recently I have found myself with 2 options to solve this situation.
    - The first is a 405 which has had some kind of vegetable oil conversion done to it already though was partially damaged when the previous owner removed the stereo.
    - My other option is a 306 with the same engine but a Lucas fuel pump which is not able to run on pure vegetable oil. This would at some point need to be changed for a Bosch fuel pump which does.
    As I'm not mechanically minded and need a derivable car immediately, my 205 might have to wait (though I'd still prefer to be driving it) and the 306 is in a strong second place as a test to drive car.
    Both the 405 and the 306 are drivable but I'm leaning towards the 306 as I'm more interested in it.
    My question is is the 306 an easy conversion? Basically I'd just like to hear all the diesel boffin's ideas.
    Thanks for reading

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  2. #2
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    Careful with veg oil it will coke and cake, make it into biodiesel and it will be a lot better. In a cold areas like your oil in anything other than summer may give hassles, even bio in winter in Vic gave me hassles. Mix it with diesel or low levels of petrol to assist here. Injection pump seals will be another thing, the rest of the car is fine, its all down to material compatibility. Use chemtec as a biocide, diesel bug in oil or biodiesel is real and makes a real mess. biofuelsforum.com will assist
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    I forgot to also add oil will tend to varnish as it heats and oxidises, injection pump will not like that either. Biodiesel, must be well converted will cause no issues apart from the material issues like priming hand pump (go to Whitworths and get viton equivalent, the pug ones dry out anyway) and injection pump seals, can be redone in synthetic but this costs as any shop will want to repair to as new to cover themselves. Cav pump also does not like biodiesel much and there is no one in Australia to repair at a sensible price so go bosch pump for either engine.
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    FWIW When I was an active member of UK Toyota Estima Forum.

    Many members with Mk1 diesel versions were successfully running them on used fish & chip oil and waste sump oil.

    The technique was to fill 200 L containers with the waste oil, let them stand for around 12 months. Then draw off the contents from a point about 150 mm from the bottom. Then mix 50/50 with new diesel.

    Using this technique nobody seemed to have any problems with the (electronic) injection system.
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    Also just think about this.. the ecconomy your going to get from a xud9te in a 205 body will be outstanding. Run on good quality fuel youll maximise injection pump life, wont go thru filters, where using homemade if you get it wrong may dissolve your savings if any damage is done to that injection pump or injectors get blockages.
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    205,405,505,306

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Careful with veg oil it will coke and cake, make it into biodiesel and it will be a lot better. In a cold areas like your oil in anything other than summer may give hassles, even bio in winter in Vic gave me hassles. Mix it with diesel or low levels of petrol to assist here. Injection pump seals will be another thing, the rest of the car is fine, its all down to material compatibility. Use chemtec as a biocide, diesel bug in oil or biodiesel is real and makes a real mess. biofuelsforum.com will assist
    Good info and forum. Much appreciated. I'd seen the forum but haven't been as regular there as I have here. I'll be reading up soon.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    FWIW When I was an active member of UK Toyota Estima Forum.

    Many members with Mk1 diesel versions were successfully running them on used fish & chip oil and waste sump oil.

    The technique was to fill 200 L containers with the waste oil, let them stand for around 12 months. Then draw off the contents from a point about 150 mm from the bottom. Then mix 50/50 with new diesel.

    Using this technique nobody seemed to have any problems with the (electronic) injection system.
    200 litres for 12 months is a dedicated endeavour. It seems making sure the fuel is good enough will be the challenge. Something to consider and the answer might be to spend more money on a system to do the work for me. Thanks robmac.

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    Quote Originally Posted by james h View Post
    Also just think about this.. the ecconomy your going to get from a xud9te in a 205 body will be outstanding. Run on good quality fuel youll maximise injection pump life, wont go thru filters, where using homemade if you get it wrong may dissolve your savings if any damage is done to that injection pump or injectors get blockages.
    The good economy is exciting. The money savings are only part of the story. I'm trying to reduce my carbon footprint. You're spot on about the engine condition being of equal concern though. If it kills the engine my motivation to do this is not really there. Any sign of trouble and I'll be putting down the chip oil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I forgot to also add oil will tend to varnish as it heats and oxidises, injection pump will not like that either. Biodiesel, must be well converted will cause no issues apart from the material issues like priming hand pump (go to Whitworths and get viton equivalent, the pug ones dry out anyway) and injection pump seals, can be redone in synthetic but this costs as any shop will want to repair to as new to cover themselves. Cav pump also does not like biodiesel much and there is no one in Australia to repair at a sensible price so go bosch pump for either engine.

  9. #9
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    Money wise you will never pay off the cost of the conversion, I get 6 litres a hundred from my standard 205 Si on easy cruising.
    Quote Originally Posted by vildeulf View Post
    Hi all,
    I'd like to ask for advice on which car to purchase to run on veggie oil. My story is that last year I bought a 205 Si from an Aussie frog member and have been getting it ready for RWC, though still requires some parts. My plan changed when I learned about the magic of the XUD9TE engine. It supposedly runs beautifully on pure veggie oil so I decided to buy (and have a mechanically minded mate install) a XUD9TE turbo diesel from a 405 or 306 in my 205.
    Recently I have found myself with 2 options to solve this situation.
    - The first is a 405 which has had some kind of vegetable oil conversion done to it already though was partially damaged when the previous owner removed the stereo.
    - My other option is a 306 with the same engine but a Lucas fuel pump which is not able to run on pure vegetable oil. This would at some point need to be changed for a Bosch fuel pump which does.
    As I'm not mechanically minded and need a derivable car immediately, my 205 might have to wait (though I'd still prefer to be driving it) and the 306 is in a strong second place as a test to drive car.
    Both the 405 and the 306 are drivable but I'm leaning towards the 306 as I'm more interested in it.
    My question is is the 306 an easy conversion? Basically I'd just like to hear all the diesel boffin's ideas.
    Thanks for reading
    vildeulf likes this.

  10. #10
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    If it were running without issue I would probably not even consider going this route. I bought the car from Aprilia (Doug) and he was in the process of upgrading the engine but it doesn't get that kind of mileage and is not running at its best. It has a series 3 GTi head and cam but no ECU or loom. I spoke to Doug recently and he'd found a 405 with a DKZ engine and thought it might be good to buy the engine and drop it in instead. By the time I chased it down the engine had been sold. This got me thinking about other engines from the 405 and my wife being a chef having access to the veg oil it seemed like an opportunity to try out this option. I haven't ruled out Doug's plan but I have taken a liking to the XUD9TE engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Money wise you will never pay off the cost of the conversion, I get 6 litres a hundred from my standard 205 Si on easy cruising.

  11. #11
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    You mentioned carbon footprint but what about emissions? Is that a concern?

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  12. #12
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    I like oil conversions, my old man did the Variety bash a few years back in our Merc 300TD running used fish and chip oil, However, In your case I would be investigating aftermarket management for the engine in it, you can get very capable systems for not much money (lest than another engine swap) and would it singing better than a Peugeot computer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Codman View Post
    ...
    However, In your case I would be investigating aftermarket management for the engine in it, you can get very capable systems for not much money (lest than another engine swap) and would it singing better than a Peugeot computer.
    I'm confused - isn't vildeulf talking about a diesel motor with a mechanical injection pump?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    I'm confused - isn't vildeulf talking about a diesel motor with a mechanical injection pump?
    That's what he is thinking of replacing his current motor with because it's not performing.
    I looked at this car just before Vildeulf picked it up, it has a GTI head on a SI bottom end, thus the inadequate management, take care of that and a nice little motor would surface

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  15. #15
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    Emissions are definitely a concern. If it's not green then again it loses appeal. The whole process of what happens to fuel before it makes it to the pump also has to be factored in though and from what I've read so far WVO (waste vegetable oil) is one of the cleanest fuels. If I find out either way I will post back here with the info.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    You mentioned carbon footprint but what about emissions? Is that a concern?
    Edit: Great question. Keeping me on my toes!

  16. #16
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    I think the conversions a great idea, that would be a great car too for long runs, bet youd see 4l / 100 figures too.
    205,405,505,306

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vildeulf View Post
    Emissions are definitely a concern. If it's not green then again it loses appeal.
    Which is exactly why my landcruiser ran its last 150K km on bio, boy it was an adventure. I hate diesel bug almost as the magic maggot. Use bio, change the injection pump seals and enjoy the emissions., oil will give you issues, I know this personally, once the injection pump starts to varnish it looses regulation and despite no wear at all its a new pump every time, mind you the $ savings paid for that many times over.
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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