505 - Now it won't go
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Thread: 505 - Now it won't go

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 505 - Now it won't go

    Well folks, did something yesterday I don't usually do - I gave up. The task in question was removing the starter motor from my 505 (S2 GTi). Before I kicked off I looked at the HoBoLo (manual) - also unusual for me - read the paragraph which told me to remove the mounting bolts (without saying how many - accompanying photo had two arrows showing the targets). Jacked up, wormed my way underneath having disconnected battery to find the bolts had an 8mm hex head & 16mm nut. Now most socket sets seem to skip 16mm but sometime I must have needed one 'cos found a loose one (also could've used the plug socket I had to buy for the toy spark plugs in the Douvrin motor I s'pose). Also had a 16mm ring spanner & a 16mm captive socket on a jointed handle in my armoury. None of the above can be fitted on the inner nut at the top (which I only discovered after I'd removed everything else & wondered why it wouldn't budge).

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    Socket will go over but not enough room to engage ratchet handle. Captive socket will go over but not in a position where its possible to rotate the handle. Briefly wondered about putting an extension on the hex drive & undoing from the 'bolt' side but looks like you'd have to take off the inlet manifold / fuel rail etc to have a chance at that? (assuming you could jam the nut so it doesn't rotate uselessly). Currently considering two options - One, bump start it & take to garage - Two, use my new 'bargain basement' Plasma cutter (it only has a 20% duty cycle but I'm sure that's enough to get through a starter casing - certainly went through a cheap chinese 'G' clamp the other day - unintentionally )

    Assuming one of those two options works any opinions on whether you really need that inner mounting bolt? After all I can turn the engine (admittedly not at starter cranking speed) with a spanner on the drive pulley with no more reaction than the friction of my feet on the ground? If learned opinion says it is needed is there any way of re-engineering the fastening to make it undoable when the next crappy bastard-offspring-of-Prince-of-Darkness-Joe-Lucas-and-his-Italian-Mistress-Mariaelli starter motor inevitably fails?

    Last thought is that usually those Frenchies seem to delight in making life hell for anyone with RHD versions of their motoring products - how much worse must this one be on an LHD model

    Yours dejectedly, Baldrick
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    For a Series 1 GTI I used two or three extensions to make em very long, and came in from the back.....way, way back. I saw my Peugeot mechanic do it prior to that. Don't remember a hex on that particular car though. I may have used 3/8 inch drive extensions as they are thin. And it was ten years ago so that's all I remember.

    You may need to use a universal joint and a second person to hold the socket on, as having them slip off constantly can cause words which will cause alarm to your neighbours and perhaps involuntary admission as a Tourettes patient.

    On reflection I don't remember using a universal joint..... but I do remember that with the extensions it was relatively easy.
    Last edited by Beano; 25th June 2018 at 01:09 PM.

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    To get enough space it's best to lower the cross member. If you take one crossmember bolt right out first you'll see how long they are, about 6 inches I think, with thread all the way. This will show how much you can loosen them without it falling on yer head. They usually have allen keyed heads in 10mm on the starter from memory but 16mm isn't the end of the world. It's only 3 bolts after all but the one right against the fire wall is the one that really needs the engine dropped.
    As Beano says a long extension is very useful, at least a metre, and you come in from over the gearbox. A universal is also handy. It's best done lying on yer back in a puddle of oil and water with a hangover.
    I ended up leaving that worst one out and doing the other two nice and tight. Never came loose on me and it was going to be easy for the next guy. There wasn't a next guy though as it got cooked by a fool I lent it to and then off to Goodwins for a spare bits car. That was my series 1 executive GTI.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    If you do lower the crossmember (or any of the other long bolts that go through the chassis rails) do not do them up really tight.
    Chassis rails are purposely made of softish metal so that they crush and collapse in an accident.

    I slightly crushed a couple of chassis rails with bolts before then learning not to from a Peugeot mechanic friend.

    The thing is though : 504s and 505s will sometimes develop a tiny clunk ....almost a tic.....when you go around corners, because these bolts have become ever so slightly loose. THey then need to be tweaked up slightly.

    I concur with Dr Luthier Just leave that last bastard of a bolt out and do up the others tight.

  5. #5
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    I use 404/504 head bolts in place of the crossmember bolts to get more clearance

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    Thanks Guys,

    only flaw in taking the approach (cunning plan) suggested was that I was using the crossmember to hold up the car! (on stands) - if I just buy some skyhooks should be easy - or get a lot thinner so's I don't have to jack up the thing to fit underneath :-/
    All the best,
    Balders
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I've recently experienced similar trials working on 206's.
    A good selection of 1/2 drive and 1/4 drive both sockets and deep sockets helped as did a $10 socket adapter set from Supercheap. Using that and existing convertors etc I already had, I was able to convert up (when I needed the strength of the 1/2" leverage but a small socket); or down when a 1/2 drive socket was needed but a 1/4 ratchet due to space.

    I'm finding the toolkit is extending it's scope now I'm working on peugeots - the specific torx bit drivers and allen head drivers are also recent purchases as my "key" versions wouldn't fit in on a couple of occasions - like the allen head caps on the power steering pump.
    KB


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    Hi
    As Has been said it's generally much easier to lower the cross member, I usually just put the car on car first and then away you go, also long extensions and a universal are the way to go, I would note however that all the starter motor blots that I have come across have been hex head not socket type, I suspect you are getting confused on the top one with a bell housing bolt which is alongside the starter bolt. I have never had any real problem getting to the top bolt using the method outlined.
    Regards
    Neil

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    Thanks KB & Neil,

    went to Bunnings last night & got myself a 16mm 3/8 drive socket plus ext bar (my existing 16's are both 1/2" drive, however I have a 3/8 uni joint so better equipped to have another go now. For reassembly I'm thinking either go with the Luthier method above or just possibly a length of threaded rod with nut/locknut (or just gobs of loctite) projecting past the stater solenoid housing done up with a nut, washer & length of tubing as a 'spacer' to site the nut in front of the starter unit - not sure yet if that'll work with the clearances etc

    Regards,

    Rob
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

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    Don't forget to undo the rubber coupling on the steering column before lowering the cross member...

  11. #11
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    Good point, thanks Bruce
    further to Luthier's point above conditions in Katoomba are just about perfect for another go now - it's freezing & lashing down with rain (the car's outside due to 'full house' of sick & broken cars inside), only thing missing is the hangover - maybe I'll work on that first
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

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    Hi Baldrick: Stuff the cars............ Just work on the hangover!!!!!!!

  13. #13
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    Well failed on the hangover also - after just two beers I was fading - must be my age

    but ....... the new (old) starter is in - sort of. Couldn't find any obvious (to me) alternative for putting the axle stands so the crossmember stayed in I'm afraid. The job's pretty much rooted my uni-joint socket connector - eventually managed to get the socket +attached uni-connector over the nut, plugged in my new long extension bar +shorter one from the set, this allowed enough room to turn the thing but it was tight with the uni at high-deflection (couldn't see how to get over top of gearbox - directly behind the nut is plastic shielding with the firewall I imagine just behind that). Just as I was wondering if it was going to break it started to move, as it turned I could see one of the connector pins projecting out of the uni joint. By the time the nut was off the pin had disappeared on top of the gearbox somewhere. Also lucky not to lose various allen keys that slipped & fell into obscure crevices. Once all mounting bolts were off, the bracket fastenings were already off (or so I thought) from last weeks effort. Thumped the starter several times cos it wouldn't budge, then I saw crack appearing between it & engine. Couldn't understand why it wouldn't come loose ........... then I found the inner bolt on the bracket couldn't even see the smegging thing from above or below. At that point was in the worst possible scenario - all loose except the invisible one, had many attempts to get a spanner on the head of the bolt which I could (just) see turning as I wound the nut (couldn't see that) before I realised that the bolt was yet another hex-keyed one. Once I eventually got the thing loose then realised it wont come out unless you remove bracket from starter. When I put the replacement in I did the two main mounting bolts (bugger the third inner one) then placed the bracket over the two tiddly studs to find the thread on the outer one was mashed at the end & nut wouldn't go on (the sort of problem you avoid if it's possible to assemble the components before offering up insitu). So I've got 2 out of 3 mounting bolts, 1 out of 2 bracket mount to starter & 1 of 2 bracket to engine (no way I was going to attempt the invisible one again - don't even know or care where that bolt went).

    Gotta say this job has really burned me - the 505's a large car (by most standards), just unbelievable how little room there is to operate and what shitty engineering for this particular component - if it was my Smart car I'd understand, every job on that is to be approached with trepidation and only completed with a full suite of barked knuckles, crush injuries to most fingers and grazed arms, but let's face it I could almost park the Smart in the boot of the 505. Elsewhere on AF I've noticed people singing the praises of the early 505's (with the XC- engine) - any way you can retro fit one of these to a series 2 GTi? (although I've yet to tackle a starter on my 404 so equipped but doesn't look too difficult). Also recall how when my local garage were doing the last service on the 505 a new vee belt was needed - the mechanic was still grumbling hours later when I went to collect the thing. Beginning to see what other people see in Holdens
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

  14. #14
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    Yes but does this starter work any better than the one you took out?

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    Fellow Frogger! luthier's Avatar
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    Baldrick yer a dick. If you'd bothered to find out how to do the job the right way in the first place you'd be recovering from a very bad hangover but there'd be none of that other rubbish and it would have saved you several hours of grovelling.
    Glad you finally did it, but it was the hardest way mate. That's why they go for Holdens fer sho but only because the mechanics have already worked out how to do a Holden the easy way, whereas you and I would have to pay the shaved ape to do it because it's probably ten times harder if you don't know how.

  16. #16
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    "Yes but does this starter work any better than the one you took out?"

    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    Baldrick yer a dick. If you'd bothered to find out how to do the job the right way in the first place you'd be recovering from a very bad hangover but there'd be none of that other rubbish and it would have saved you several hours of grovelling.
    Glad you finally did it, but it was the hardest way mate. That's why they go for Holdens fer sho but only because the mechanics have already worked out how to do a Holden the easy way, whereas you and I would have to pay the shaved ape to do it because it's probably ten times harder if you don't know how.
    Arma - well it started it, in fact a thorough test of the replacement as a lot of cranking was needed - Louis 505th had gone into a major sulk from 3-4 weeks of inactivity. How long it'll go for's anyones guess which is why I'm pessimistic about having to do the whole lot over thus left out the 'impossible' bolts.

    Luthier - guilty as charged, but my defence plea is that none of this is my day job, & only orders (HBoLo) was I following ('til I ranted for help on AF). So I've now missed 'tax time' to buy the four post lift which would allow me (I guess) to drop the crossmember. Minor additional difficulty is that I'd have to cut a 505 shaped hatch in the Loungeroom as headroom in my garage is 2.5m & the house is on top, not sure if permission would be forthcoming (either for the lift$$$$$ or the hatch), but hey - major woodwork & structural alterations inevitable if you need to do something reeeeeeallly complex on a 505, like dip the oil. Won't start browsing Gumtree for a Holden just yet
    Armidillo and DeeCee like this.
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

  17. #17
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    If you had put the stands under the radiator support crossmember you can then remove the main xmember bolts and gain the clearance you need to make it a very easy job.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianrobbo View Post
    If you had put the stands under the radiator support crossmember you can then remove the main xmember bolts and gain the clearance you need to make it a very easy job.
    Doh
    to me it didn't look strong enough - now I know
    perhaps I'm a bit reticent after jacking up the back of the 404 wanting axle to drop I chose some apparently reinforced areas just inboard of the rear of the rocker to site the stands - those areas a bit curly now
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

  19. #19
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    I try and use lumps of timber to spread the load when I'm unsure of the strength of the jacking point.

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    Hi Guys: Ah, Baldrick I love following your 505 adventures as they even make Cecil look good at times. I too had a kaput starter motor last month but I did the repair an even easier way............. I gave it to my auto electrician while he was still talking to me. After reading your most recent adventure I now realise it was the smartest idea I've had all year. Your diatribe also makes his bill seem ultra reasonable...... Now, am I game to give him the MG with all its Lucas bits?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeCee View Post
    Hi Guys: Ah, Baldrick I love following your 505 adventures as they even make Cecil look good at times. I too had a kaput starter motor last month but I did the repair an even easier way............. I gave it to my auto electrician while he was still talking to me. After reading your most recent adventure I now realise it was the smartest idea I've had all year. Your diatribe also makes his bill seem ultra reasonable...... Now, am I game to give him the MG with all its Lucas bits?
    Any decent old skool autosparky will have a reliable source for lucas smoke - I think it was the lucas plan all along - no money made on the original wiring and components, but an eternity of smoke refills to supply....... ��

  22. #22
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    Disconnect the steering coupling first!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    If you do lower the crossmember (or any of the other long bolts that go through the chassis rails) do not do them up really tight.
    Chassis rails are purposely made of softish metal so that they crush and collapse in an accident.

    I slightly crushed a couple of chassis rails with bolts before then learning not to from a Peugeot mechanic friend.

    The thing is though : 504s and 505s will sometimes develop a tiny clunk ....almost a tic.....when you go around corners, because these bolts have become ever so slightly loose. THey then need to be tweaked up slightly.

    I concur with Dr Luthier Just leave that last bastard of a bolt out and do up the others tight.

  23. #23
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    XC engines also have a much more usuable torque band, Douvrins don't do anything until 3500 then die out before 6000.

    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    Well failed on the hangover also - after just two beers I was fading - must be my age

    but ....... the new (old) starter is in - sort of. Couldn't find any obvious (to me) alternative for putting the axle stands so the crossmember stayed in I'm afraid. The job's pretty much rooted my uni-joint socket connector - eventually managed to get the socket +attached uni-connector over the nut, plugged in my new long extension bar +shorter one from the set, this allowed enough room to turn the thing but it was tight with the uni at high-deflection (couldn't see how to get over top of gearbox - directly behind the nut is plastic shielding with the firewall I imagine just behind that). Just as I was wondering if it was going to break it started to move, as it turned I could see one of the connector pins projecting out of the uni joint. By the time the nut was off the pin had disappeared on top of the gearbox somewhere. Also lucky not to lose various allen keys that slipped & fell into obscure crevices. Once all mounting bolts were off, the bracket fastenings were already off (or so I thought) from last weeks effort. Thumped the starter several times cos it wouldn't budge, then I saw crack appearing between it & engine. Couldn't understand why it wouldn't come loose ........... then I found the inner bolt on the bracket couldn't even see the smegging thing from above or below. At that point was in the worst possible scenario - all loose except the invisible one, had many attempts to get a spanner on the head of the bolt which I could (just) see turning as I wound the nut (couldn't see that) before I realised that the bolt was yet another hex-keyed one. Once I eventually got the thing loose then realised it wont come out unless you remove bracket from starter. When I put the replacement in I did the two main mounting bolts (bugger the third inner one) then placed the bracket over the two tiddly studs to find the thread on the outer one was mashed at the end & nut wouldn't go on (the sort of problem you avoid if it's possible to assemble the components before offering up insitu). So I've got 2 out of 3 mounting bolts, 1 out of 2 bracket mount to starter & 1 of 2 bracket to engine (no way I was going to attempt the invisible one again - don't even know or care where that bolt went).

    Gotta say this job has really burned me - the 505's a large car (by most standards), just unbelievable how little room there is to operate and what shitty engineering for this particular component - if it was my Smart car I'd understand, every job on that is to be approached with trepidation and only completed with a full suite of barked knuckles, crush injuries to most fingers and grazed arms, but let's face it I could almost park the Smart in the boot of the 505. Elsewhere on AF I've noticed people singing the praises of the early 505's (with the XC- engine) - any way you can retro fit one of these to a series 2 GTi? (although I've yet to tackle a starter on my 404 so equipped but doesn't look too difficult). Also recall how when my local garage were doing the last service on the 505 a new vee belt was needed - the mechanic was still grumbling hours later when I went to collect the thing. Beginning to see what other people see in Holdens

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    XC engines also have a much more usuable torque band, Douvrins don't do anything until 3500 then die out before 6000.
    Thanks Guys - so more useable for towing then? (the XC). Just after I'd first got the 505 my stepson said "Whad'ya buy that for?" on first sight of the thing. My reply was "well it was either this or a ute - for towing with." God how I wish I'd gone the Ute route now. Mind you not much towings been done - too busy fixing the damn thing to spend the time fabing a trailer (car transporter) to haul around the other restoration projects that also haven't been fixed yet
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

  25. #25
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    My 505 GTi sedan Douvrin engine pulls to 6500 very well with its extractor system

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