e10 fuel in a 1999 406 3 ltre coupe
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Thread: e10 fuel in a 1999 406 3 ltre coupe

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    Default e10 fuel in a 1999 406 3 ltre coupe

    hi guys,is there any problems using 95 octane e10 in my 406 coupe 3ltre??
    is to ok or a big nono
    .i understand some older engines don't like it and some are fine.

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    Bazz

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    Fellow Frogger! luthier's Avatar
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    I'd use standard 95 in an emergency but 98 is best for these cars. Many will tell you never to even mention the E word.
    I know engine reconditioners who swear that use of E and also of 91 will cause early engine death particularly in the top end.
    At least that's the goss, maybe there is hard scientific proof but I listen to blokes who fix valves and heads all the time, that's enough proof for me.
    And if you add up the extra cost of the good fuel against stuffing your engine then it's your gamble and your decision.
    And if you want to really know then call in to a few established head reconditioners and ask them directly . There are a few such blokes here on the forum but mostly those guys don't do a lot of forum stuff because they don't enjoy being contradicted by twits who just have an opinion without much experience, like a whole lifetime of personal cars might equal 10 or 20 or even 30 while the pro's get that many to fix every week.
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    Ethanol, even at 10% over a period of times loves rubber; hoses and seals notwithstanding other issue as to how clean it is.

    The PVR V6 in your coupe is a relatively high performance engine, so I would go for the 98 octane stuff and not use ethanol added fuels in any vehicle unless specifically allowed for by the manufacturer.

    Regards,
    John

    Quote Originally Posted by 87205gti View Post
    hi guys,is there any problems using 95 octane e10 in my 406 coupe 3ltre??
    is to ok or a big nono
    .i understand some older engines don't like it and some are fine.

    ta
    Bazz

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    It's not a PRV - it's a much more modern ES9J4. In that time period, the PRV motor was only found in the 605 and XM.

    The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries says E10 should be OK in any post-July 97 Pug. However, their disclaimer is worth reading.

    https://www.fcai.com.au/environment/...l-blend-petrol

    Cheers

    Alec
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    You have to wonder why manufacturers specifically approve the use of E10. Do the ‘stories’ relate more to DI perhaps rather than the “up to” 10% .


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    It'll be fine. My 406 (same engine) has used e10 the whole time I've owned it. It's done almost 420 thousand kms now. I got it at 240. Apart from slightly leaky valve stem seals the top end is fine. At 400000 kms the original fuel pump failed. So I'm not convinced that e10 eats them.

    I've tried other fuels in it, never 91. I couldn't notice any difference in performance or economy.

    As long as you fill up, drive to fuel light and fill up again it will last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    It'll be fine. My 406 (same engine) has used e10 the whole time I've owned it. It's done almost 420 thousand kms now. I got it at 240. Apart from slightly leaky valve stem seals the top end is fine. At 400000 kms the original fuel pump failed. So I'm not convinced that e10 eats them.

    I've tried other fuels in it, never 91. I couldn't notice any difference in performance or economy.

    As long as you fill up, drive to fuel light and fill up again it will last.

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    At 25-30c/Litre less for similar economy too.


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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I use it in mine only when I have to. When I'm in NSW, it's often difficult to find regular unleaded. I find that I use about 10% more fuel when using E10 compared to regular fuel, so unless it's more than 10% cheaper, it's false economy.

    I also find that I use more 95 or 98 under similar driving conditions to when I use 91. As a result, I always try to use 91.
    Last edited by Demannu; 28th June 2018 at 07:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I use it in mine only when I have to. When I'm in NSW, it's often difficult to find regular unleaded. I find that I use about 10% more fuel when using E10 compared to regular fuel, so unless if's more than 10% cheaper, it's false economy.

    I also find that I use more 95 or 98 under similar driving conditions to when I use 91. As a result, I always try to use 91.
    After some thousands on PULP I got the same exactly using E10 fm United eg yesterday Bendigo 128.9.....29c less than discounted Woolies.
    No contest.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I use it in mine only when I have to. When I'm in NSW, it's often difficult to find regular unleaded. I find that I use about 10% more fuel when using E10 compared to regular fuel, so unless if's more than 10% cheaper, it's false economy.

    I also find that I use more 95 or 98 under similar driving conditions to when I use 91. As a result, I always try to use 91.

    your not supposed to run 91 in a 3 ltre v6, 406 coupe
    it says min 95 ???

    Bazz

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    Use e10 to wreck your great car.
    Wasting your money, it will cost more in repairs and cleaning fuel system every 3 months

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    It seems to be an approved model -
    https://www.fcai.com.au/environment/...l-blend-petrol


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    Ok to use but, e10 creates more CO2 due to higher fuel consumption.

    Main issue is extra carbon deposits on intake valves, need to clean every 3 months

    Why You Shouldn't Use E10 Fuels in your Car - Kiwi French Automotive

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    Despite what Cav91 says, statements like that ^ make me worry, so if it was me I think the bottom line is that it is better to be safe than sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Ok to use but, e10 creates more CO2 due to higher fuel consumption.

    Main issue is extra carbon deposits on intake valves, need to clean every 3 months

    Why You Shouldn't Use E10 Fuels in your Car - Kiwi French Automotive
    This doesn't strike me as a very authoritative source - I think they are talking about Direct Injection engines. Can anyone explain why​ e10 fuel would cause coking up of valves in a properly functioning engine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    This doesn't strike me as a very authoritative source - I think they are talking about Direct Injection engines. Can anyone explain why​ e10 fuel would cause coking up of valves in a properly functioning engine?
    Yes, DI issue is another matter affecting all engines if only because it’s about the lack of fuel to clean the back of the valve....a common design issue
    Either way, I’ve yet to seen a direct post from an actual sufferer of DI, or E10 for that matter as opposed to the posting of ‘known issues with’ type opinion pieces.


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    Check out any Engineering study on ethanol fuels

    As good as many

    Download the slide show, ethanol fuels also affect many other engine parts.
    Test down with max power loading

    https://www.slideserve.com/strom/hig...eering-project

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    As far as I know, it’s America’s favourite racing fuel @100%.
    Ours is only “up to”10% and approved by Citroen. I keep reading about “known issues” and “everybody knows” but they never seem to appear in person. Like DI it’s a disaster about to happen but not personally......yet.


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    so we do have any real evidence behind the horror stories or are they just that <horror stories?
    has anyone here personally have any documented problems that ended up being the result of using the 95 e10 fuel?

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    I can vouch for fuel system problems almost certainly caused by ethanol's ability to mobilise previously stable sediment (ie. dirt) and attack rubber hoses.

    1. L-series Subaru carburetor needed overhaul - my son had been using e10 pretty exclusively.

    2. Xantia - blocked injector. Lumps of rubber trapped on top of injector, which I was able to clean without specialist help. Did not replace any fuel hoses and problem did not recur.

    3. Xantia started cutting out - no codes stored, and it would restart immediately after turning key off. Seemed random at first, but as frequency of cut-outs incresed, it became obvious it was happening under load, which made me think fuel starvation. Injectors were fine, and changing filter made no difference. Eventually found that in-tank fuel strainer was clogged by black slimy gunk, which again I was able to clean up myself.

    With the Xantia I was using e10 about 50% of the time. Being a Series I '97 model it was not technically approved for ethanol use, & I imagine fuel hoses were upgraded on post-'98 cars. I have not seen any evidence of problems beyond what you'd expect because of ethanol's solvent properties - effects limited to mobilising dirt and attacking rubber.

    Cheers

    Alec

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    128.9 for United E10/95 in Bendigo still, which is approved for my late model turbo (6 year/unlimited km warranty), and which is at least 29c less than the “cheap n nasty” supermarket fuel equivalent.
    You CAN lead a horse to water BUT....twitter rules.


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    It appears as though there is no e10 in WA, but our petrol can uave a maximum of 10% ethanol!!!!!
    There is an e85 blend available in some places.
    I do know that modders will often run a "flex fuel" system which detects the ethanol % and retunes the timing etc to compensate. I think it is actually somehow testing the ron number in fact rather than the kind of fuel, but I don't actually know. Check out the haltech ecu videos on youtube.
    Many modern cars have knock sensors etc to work out what ron fuel is being run and adjust based on the sensors.
    In that respect, any modern ecu controlled car should be able to adjust itself to some extent.
    But as with biodiesel cleaning the system out and putting all that muck into the filter etc, apparently ethanol blends do the same (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread).
    For mine, and I am not a smart guys so it is not expert advice, it depends on how smart your car is as to whether you will do long term damage, but you will likely end up with "dirty fuel" type problems for the first tank or three.
    But I fit into the 20-30 car expert category, and it is not my car we are talking about, so I have nothing to lose......

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    I have no doubt after talking to these guys.
    I had complete collapse of my valve seats using E10 and if you ring and ask these guys about it they will happily tell you about all the low mileage head jobs that happen from people using these fuels.

    Pryce Race Engines

    As I said earlier just ask any shop that deals with this every day, don't take the word of a shade tree mechanic who might only do a hundred or two in his life, listen to the blokes with the experience, or not. WTF would I care.

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    It seems my C4P has a fault because over the last 11,000 + kms the shown consumption figure, confirmed by fill to fill measurements is better than the official 5.6 “combined” figure ....... actually it shows 5.2 but I have never believed these displays.
    The manufacturers approve it’s use but maybe they don’t know much about their own product.
    The popular opinions continue -
    https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...b74615c710caaa

    I must stop saving 29 - 35c/L apparently because (supposedly) consumption rises by 4% ........!
    Really?.


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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    I have no doubt after talking to these guys.
    I had complete collapse of my valve seats using E10 and if you ring and ask these guys about it they will happily tell you about all the low mileage head jobs that happen from people using these fuels.

    Pryce Race Engines

    As I said earlier just ask any shop that deals with this every day, don't take the word of a shade tree mechanic who might only do a hundred or two in his life, listen to the blokes with the experience, or not. WTF would I care.
    Ouch - only too happy to learn from other's experience!! What engine did that happen in? Was it similar to the valve-seat recession that occurs in engines (eg 504s) not built for ULP ? Is it possible that, just as valve seats were modified to suit ULP, that engines were modified to handle ethanol?

    Cheers

    Alec

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