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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default carbon clean

    Have been quoted about $1800 by Regans and Bayside Peugeot for an apparently needed inlet valve carbon clean on a 308 cc 1.6 petrol with 80k on the clock. Bayside say the car will eventually have turbo affected full time. Any other way to deal with the odd times it has a flat spot ?

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    Forgot to say that I spoke to John Norder, one of mechanics listed here and he said that he thought that the stated need for the job was oversell. Is he right ?

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    you can do it yourself for under $50.

    There are plenty of youtube examples.

    Essentially your spraying a can of active foamy stuff that takes the carbon from the back of the valves. Being direct injection the valves dont get cleaned by incoming petrol and air. $1800 sounds like a total rip off for the job unless Im missing something?

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Maybe not a 30minute job after all.

    Have a read here

    The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...

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    It's quite possibly needed at that mileage. What you save on timing belts you spend on inlet valve and port cleaning. It goes with direct petrol injection, in any of the makes that use this.

    You are up for a can of expensive valve crud softerner, a Peugeot part, and about 6 hours of labour to dismantle the intake maniifold, scrape it out with suitable tools, and to reassemble. In practice it will be spread over two days to give the softener time to work.

    $1800 seems excessive to me for this. Find an independent mechanic who knows the engine. Knowledge is important because there is minimal view of the back of the motor and a lot of the fixings and plugs are done by feel. The cleaning itself is done with a mirror. An alternative, but not cheaper to my knowledge is a walnut shell blast once the manifold is off.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I have had very good results with Carby and intake manifold cleaner spray. Judging by the smell, it is acetone (and I do know that acetone will dissolve anything, including some things you may not want). Which is why I use it with everything off the engine. Things come factory clean.
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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The stuff Subaru sells is the best. Follow instructions on the can and do it regularly for best results. It works a treat.
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    The Subaru cleaner, and the Nulon one, are meant for regular use to minimise depositing and are sprayed into the intake at oil change. I have used them, but still needed to clean the valves with the engine in place. The crud is fearsomely adhesive and obstructive. The PSA product 1606394180 is used by dealers to soften the deposits at physical removal with the manifold off.

  8. #8
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    So are all these problems really worth it ? I will stick to my 504Ti and 505GTi's on historic plates
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  9. #9
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    As above all Direct Injection engines suffer from it, also the oil used should be a 'low ash' variant with changes every 5k and a oil catch can. I'd also be using a upper engine cleaner (the subaru product is fantastic) and doing this every 5k at oil change.

    Water Meth kits help as well since they are injected through the manifold, while it is another option 99% people wont go that far as its really not needed (i will be as im looking for some extra hp)
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  10. #10
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    Go with BPs 2 tank full of 98 to clean your engine, must be great stuff by the advertising.

    Never use the crappy e10, will cost you in long run

    Use the best 98 all the time to avoid carbon buildup

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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Go with BPs 2 tank full of 98 to clean your engine, must be great stuff by the advertising.

    Never use the crappy e10, will cost you in long run

    Use the best 98 all the time to avoid carbon buildup
    Experts please correct me if I'm off-track, but I think you are misunderstanding the problem - because these are direct injection engines, there is no fuel drawn through the intake manifold - just oil mist from the sump breather.

    Oil gets burnt onto the backs of the valves, and builds up until it interferes with the air intake.
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  12. #12
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    Correct. This thread involves PSA petrol engines only from the EP6 series, as well as engines from other makers with direct injection.

    No petrol passes over the inlet valves, but oil vapour does, from crankcase breathing and turbo bearing losses. It is damed hot in there, and ash residue from the oil vapour combustion adheres strongly to the valve upper surfaces and the ports and builds up to the level where it affects breathing and oxygen/fuel ratios. There is no sensor that directly detects this. Vapour that gets into the cylinders, most of it, is burned off in the usual way.

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    No magic Subaru style sprays work,the crud is baked on and the PSA procedure is soda bead blasting,after removing manifold.The special tool kit we got had vacuum cleaner elbow fitting with a hole to insert the blaster.Of course cam cover has to come off so you can make sure the two valves in the port are fully closed.They have modified the rocker cover twice in a vain attempt to reduce the oil vapours being deilvered to intake.What possessed the French to get so infatuated with this BMW tart of an engine? It has multiple issues not just this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by salman View Post
    No magic Subaru style sprays work,the crud is baked on and the PSA procedure is soda bead blasting,after removing manifold.The special tool kit we got had vacuum cleaner elbow fitting with a hole to insert the blaster.Of course cam cover has to come off so you can make sure the two valves in the port are fully closed.They have modified the rocker cover twice in a vain attempt to reduce the oil vapours being deilvered to intake.What possessed the French to get so infatuated with this BMW tart of an engine? It has multiple issues not just this.
    The sprays aren't a perfect solution this is true but they are better than nothing. You are correct only the port cleaning that will be 100% effective is the bead or soda blast but not a fun nor easy job to do on the 207.

    The old way was worse it was a removal of the head and soaking the ports!

    If you do the upper engine clean regularly and use the right oil and fuel while not being 100% effective it makes a difference compared to nothing at all.

    Yes this rocker covers are horrible while the engine is very capable the EURO emissions standards have made it so it chokes itself. The PCV system is terrible from a maintenance point of view but very goid emissions wise.

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  15. #15
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    cam cover has to come off so you can make sure the two valves in the port are fully closed
    or you can remove some plugs and put a rod on the pistons and watch their movement, while looking at the valves in a mirror for confirmation. That saves a lot of time.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I would give it a go before going deeper into money with carby cleaner sprayed directly down the intake/exhaust port after making sure the respective valve is closed. The manifold(s) should be off. There is nothing down there that acetone will kill so no risk and dissolved crud can go in the cylinder and be burned. Leave for a couple of hours for each set of valves to soak then bring the other set to fully closed until you've done the lot.
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  17. #17
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    Removing and replacing the manifold and attached fittings, plus usually the injectors on the rail, is the greatest part of the job. It isn't a trivial undertaking. Try whatever works to soften the crud, and get scraping.

  18. #18
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Why would the injectors need removing?
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    Indian Subaru dealers use oven cleaner.
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  20. #20
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    Why would the injectors need removing?
    Because they are next to the ports. The rail runs across your view and the injectors slope upward. When you are working over the top with a mirror the lack of vision and finger room gets a bit much. It doesn't take long, but be careful of the seals. carbon clean-distributionthp3d.jpg

    carbon clean-fuel-rail.jpg
    Last edited by seasink; 11th June 2018 at 08:31 PM.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! dmccurtayne's Avatar
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    Donít remove the injectors
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    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    This has been an interesting and timely thread as I'm in the market for a new/newish car and the 308/3008, given the positive reviews a go to choice.

    However the issues and work arounds in order to overcome the downside of direct injection engines (not limited to PSA) has left me with the feeling I'd be better to look elsewhere.

    I'd rather be doing a cambelt/water pump/tensioner service than walnut/soda/PSA/ Subaru dissolving agents considering they are only a part fix of the problem.
    Assuming that PSA has learnt nothing other than emissions control, the 1.2 would suffer the same poor engineering of the EP6?
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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Indian Subaru dealers use oven cleaner.
    Is that so?

    It should work, not sure how it would go with being burnt through the engine..

  24. #24
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    If my Christmas stocking had a 308 GTi in it, I'd be over the moon. All engines need servicing, and I have never been attached to timing belt changes.

    Direct injection isn't going away. See, eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
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    I'd love a308GTi in the driveway too but PSA have transferred the problems associated with direct injection technology to the end user.
    I feel sorry for those who have been conned.
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