Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block
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Thread: Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Pug72's Avatar
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    Default Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block

    I just want to get the forum guru's opinion before I commit.

    I have been slowly gathering parts for my engine rebuild. I have an opportunity to get hold of a reconditioned 505 series 1 cylinder head (with the idea of saving me heaps of time.)

    But I just want to make sure that this cylinder head will fit my 1972 504 engine block.

    Thank you

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Can you get a photo of the head, showing the intake side? It may be a Siamese port head. If yours is not, it is probably an upgrade but you will also need the intake manifold.

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    Fellow Frogger! Pug72's Avatar
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    I have a 505 Series 1 intake manifold at home already. I scored this a while back when I collected bits for the air conditioning installation

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    If it's a square port head, you will need the intake manifold and carby and air filter stuff. The head will fit.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Square-port heads breathe so much better. The early intake was a bit constricted.

    Andrew, if you buy a head you need to take along a pair of calipers and measure it at both ends. Sometimes if it's been skimmed poorly it will be thinner at one end than the other.

    I forget the original thickness...I think it was 92.5 (Someone please correct me here).
    Every time it gets shaved over the years at the reconditioners it gets less, until at about 91.5 (I think.......perhaps it's 91) ) the engine starts to ping from too much compression.
    I've owned and heard a fair few 504s that had that metallic-sounding rattle of pinging. Though sometimes it IS the rattle of the timing chain.
    I've always wondered if it might be possible to grind out the combustion chambers slightly to compensate for a much-shaved head.....though of course if the head gets too thin the valves risk hitting the pistons.

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    Ya know Beano; there is only one true way to find out the result of grinding out the combustion chamber isn't there?

    Perhaps Pug 72 may be prepared to accommodate your thirst for knowlege?

    Whats a symphony of clanging valves between friends?
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    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    As per the official Peugeot workshop manual - "normal cylinder head height 92.5mm +/- .15mm". 'Height after skimming min 92mm +/- .15mm".

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    a machinist can always add material to the cylinder head and then skim it, that's what i had done to my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Square-port heads breathe so much better. The early intake was a bit constricted.

    Andrew, if you buy a head you need to take along a pair of calipers and measure it at both ends. Sometimes if it's been skimmed poorly it will be thinner at one end than the other.

    I forget the original thickness...I think it was 92.5 (Someone please correct me here).
    Every time it gets shaved over the years at the reconditioners it gets less, until at about 91.5 (I think.......perhaps it's 91) ) the engine starts to ping from too much compression.
    I've owned and heard a fair few 504s that had that metallic-sounding rattle of pinging. Though sometimes it IS the rattle of the timing chain.
    I've always wondered if it might be possible to grind out the combustion chambers slightly to compensate for a much-shaved head.....though of course if the head gets too thin the valves risk hitting the pistons.
    If the head has been skimmed more than 1 mm, you can always get a 2 mm copper head gasket from Ridgecrest Engineering. They are bulletproof and can reduce compression back to standard. Alternatively, for the same money, you can get a mild cam regrind with more overlap than the standard and you will reduce cylinder pressures AND get more power..

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThanosK View Post
    Alternatively, for the same money, you can get a mild cam regrind with more overlap than the standard and you will reduce cylinder pressures AND get more power..
    Now THERE'S food for thought. I'm not sure if I woulod trust a copper gasket. It would have to have a liberal application of Hylomar on both sides, wouldn't it ?

    I once fitted two head gaskets together, on the advice of an old guy who had done it previously. He said to torque up the head much higher than you usually do....80 or even 90 ft/lbs.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    a machinist can always add material to the cylinder head and then skim it, that's what i had done to my head.
    I once enquired about that but was told that it would be too involved and expensive. You must have found someone with a lot of patience and who didn't charge too much.
    Last edited by Beano; 8th December 2017 at 10:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post

    I once fitted two head gaskets together, on the advice of an old guy who had done it previously. He said to torque up the head much higher than you usually do....80 or even 90 ft/lbs.
    seems very dodgy to put 2 gaskets, and there are 500 different opinions on how much to torque the bolts as it is...
    there are thicker gaskets made of the standard material, not copper. i have a nice gasket by Payen which is 1.6mm thick.

    I once enquired about that but was told that it would be too involved and expensive. You must have found someone with a lot of patience and who didn't charge too much.
    yeah, it cost a lot but they did a good job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    ....I'm not sure if I woulod trust a copper gasket. It woulod have to have a liberal application of Hylomar on both sides, wouldn't it ?
    About 35,000 special rally miles on Ridgecrest copper gaskets between all the cars, we have yet to see one to fail. Yes, we do apply copper containing gasket spray liberally on both sides,

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    seems very dodgy to put 2 gaskets,...
    It's a risky proposition, in that you can get movement. Torquing the head bolts at 11 or 12 kgM alleviates some of that concern, but there is a second problem: the piston to head clearance near the circumference of the piston should be no more than 1 mm to create a squish zone. If it is more than that (and it will be, around 2.5 mm with two gaskets), there is sure to be power loss.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    .. i have a nice gasket by Payen which is 1.6mm thick.
    This is standard thickness. Once it compresses it goes down to 1.2 mm or even less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    a machinist can always add material to the cylinder head and then skim it, that's what i had done to my head.
    Would you happen to have pictures of the operation ?
    And how satisfied would you consider yourself regarding the obtained result ?
    Chadi

    1982 504 SR white manual sedan with A/C (257 000 Km)
    2012 308 1.6 VTi Vapor Grey manual H/B (35000 Km)
    1994 405 1.6 white manual sedan (208 000 Km)
    1992 605 SV24 (91 000 Km)
    2005 406 2.0L automatic (Replaced with a 2013 C5)
    1983 505 GR white manual sedan with A/C (170000 Km)

    All since new


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    no pictures, sorry, but they did it really good.
    as for satisfaction- it's too soon to tell, there were few problems with the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    I once fitted two head gaskets together, on the advice of an old guy who had done it previously. He said to torque up the head much higher than you usually do....80 or even 90 ft/lbs.
    The 11-12 kg.m we routinely use is 81-88 lbs.ft so we are in agreement with the advice you got.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I was quite surprised at how robust 504 head bolts are.....considering how easy it was to break a Toyota bolt once.
    When I torqued them up to 90 ft/lbs, it took a long torque wrench and most of my strength. Also, they stopped turning about then. I got the impression they wouldn't take much more.

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    A had a package turn up today - a reconditioned early 505 cylinder head. It has had new valves, seats,springs and new welsh plugs. It had been sitting for a while, so there is some light surface rust on the some of the raw steel components. I've now coated this with lanolin.

    So is this a square port head - by the square ports on the inlet side?

    Is it worth getting it ported and polished?

    I need to source inlet manifold studs - any ideas here?

    Thanks
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-cylinder-head.jpg   Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-cylinder-head-1.jpg   Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-cylinder-head-2.jpg   Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-cylinder-head-3.jpg   Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-cylinder-head-4.jpg  
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  19. #19
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    for the manifold you need bolts, all the studs are there.
    but the mating surface isn't good...

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I was told by Chiltons (who did high-end stuff plus all the work for Peugeotcare in Woolloongabba) that it is not worth getting ported and polished.

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    Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-102086d1513744163-will-505-series-1-petrol-cylinder-head-fit-1972-504-petrol-block-cylinder-head.jpg
    what's that little hole for? in some heads it exists and in some doesn't.


    Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-102085d1513744129-will-505-series-1-petrol-cylinder-head-fit-1972-504-petrol-block-cylinder-head.jpg

    and those holes? never saw them in any head.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Will a 505 series 1 petrol cylinder head fit a 1972 504 petrol block-102086d1513744163-will-505-series-1-petrol-cylinder-head-fit-1972-504-petrol-block-cylinder-head.jpg  

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    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    what's that little hole for? in some heads it exists and in some doesn't.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	102085d1513744129-will-505-series-1-petrol-cylinder-head-fit-1972-504-petrol-block-cylinder-head.jpg 
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    and those holes? never saw them in any head.
    The hole on the front is from corrosion! Not sure I would be using the head without getting that repaired first.

    Mating surface looks pretty rough too!
    1988 Peugeot 505 GTI Wagon
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
    1973 Peugeot 504 GL





  23. #23
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    The holes on the rear are:

    1) Oil feed line from block.

    2) A plug placed to seal the hole used for drilling the longitudinal oil gallery in the head.

    All Xm and Xn engines have the former.
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    Polishing went out of fashion 40 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    I was told by Chiltons (who did high-end stuff plus all the work for Peugeotcare in Woolloongabba) that it is not worth getting ported and polished.

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    I took the head to Chiltons Engineering in Brisbane this morning for them to check over.

    The head has had some welding done to the surface, but the repairs have been done well. Crack and NDT showed nil failures. The deck is perfectly flat. The surface just needs to be rubbed over with a scotch brite pad and kerosene as there is dried oil/wax compound all over it.

    As for the little hole at the front of the head underneath the water pump gasket - that is standard and is on my current cylinder head that is in the car.

    The two small "holes" at the back of the head have plugs/blanks in them.

    The new valve seats are hardened so I will now be able to run unleaded without the need for the valve saver additive.

    The Engineer said it is a good head so I am happy with that.

    Cheers
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