505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 33
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: 505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start

  1. #1
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default 505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start

    Hello all. my old GerTi was starting and running very well, but the switch (relay? - sorry I may not know all the correct terms!) wasnt working to start the radiator fan. My partner installed a manual switch in the centre console of the dash and we found a wire not being used. He connected this up, so I can manually activate the fan if needed. He also tidied up a few seemingly unused wires and relays, checking first (of course) that they werent connected to anything. The previous owner did have spot lights and CB which he took out.

    When we checked lights etc were working, we discovered that it now will not start. I have a Haynes manual but cant see from that what may have been removed under the bonnet that would affect the car starting.

    Advertisement


    A friend who owns an '87 505 suggested that, in these cars, we wont hear the fuel pump kick in when turning the ignition, like a lot of cars. He said there was a sensor that detected the engine turning over at about 300rpm, in effect saying - 'they want to start the car, so now i send a message to the fuel pump to kick in'.

    So, can anyone confirm this and if so, where is the sensor/relay that does this. Attached are a couple of pics of my engine bay, specifically the fuel system and the green relays. Does anyone know what they do? we have tried switching lights, etc but they do not click. Hope this all makes sense. thanks in advance.505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-img_0366%5B1%5D.jpg505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-img_0367%5B1%5D.jpg

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    652

    Default

    As far as I recall the pump will work as soon as the ignition is turned on.

    There is a relay mounted on the right side of the steering column just up from the pedals that controls the pump.
    This is known to fail and it did on my car.

    The most common problem is solder joints that fatigue and break - a simple re-solder can get it working again.

    Check to see if the pump is working. Have someone listen for it as you turn the ignition on.
    The pump is mounted just in front of the fuel tank.

    I don't own a GTi any more, so that's as much help as I can contribute at this time.

    There are many other members who have better knowledge than I.

    Cheers
    Roland

    Land Rover Discovery 4
    406 Coupe D9 - Manual (2002)
    406 SV Sedan D8 - Manual (1998)
    307 Hdi Estate - Auto - (2007)
    307 Hdi Sedan - Auto - (2007)
    505GR Estate - Personal Import from UK 1971cc Manual (March 1986)
    405 Mi16x4 (all the parts ready to install into the LeMans body)

  3. #3
    cjl
    cjl is offline
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Blackalls Park NSW
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Did this happen immediately after your partner tidied up the wiring?
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    173

    Default

    What's with the 505's recently - no less than four 505 issues heading up the forum right now!

    Based on my experience with an 89 Gti I certainly don't hear the fuel pump when turning on the ignition (might have more to do with my 60 year old ears than the audibility of the pump), not from the driving seat anyway. Worth bearing in mind there's two pumps in the system - a lift pump in the tank feeding a pressure pump.

    If I had to guess I'd say the tachymetric relay as per Rolands post above would be prime suspect.

    Secondly the usual checks of pulling out a plug, connecting it & earthing against engine block to see if you're getting a spark.

    if a spark's there you can check the fuel delivery (engine cold) by disconnecting cold start injector, plugging hole, getting an assistant to crank engine whilst holding injector above empty can & see if fuel flows.

    if there's spark & fuel you're into the more esoteric checks on fuel injection system (see the link in my post "505 not behaving" for an in depth guide), but be mindful of DeeCees experience on faulty ignition system components in the other "505 won't start" post.

    Hope you get it sorted,

    Rob
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  5. #5
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    hi. thanks to all for your replies. yes, as soon as the wiring was tidied we did a check of lights, etc. they all work but no start! thanks.

  6. #6
    cjl
    cjl is offline
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Blackalls Park NSW
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michele View Post
    hi. thanks to all for your replies. yes, as soon as the wiring was tidied we did a check of lights, etc. they all work but no start! thanks.
    It is possible that during the tidying of the wiring that something vital has been disconnected or disturbed. Also check the fuses and check that power is getting to the ignition module.
    Good luck,
    Chris.
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon

  7. #7
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    yes, we are certain this is the problem. already checked fuses, just checked spark and ear to the pump - definitely not pumping.
    we think it is something to do with the green relays and the one that was between them (pic in original post) switching lights, etc - these green relays do not activate so we dont know what they are meant to be connected to. does anyone know? thanks.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! luthier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northern NSW
    Posts
    891

    Default

    If the ignition module just happened to fail coincidently during the cleanup you won't get a spark and you won't get any fuel pump action as it is automatically cut off when there's no spark. It's a safety feature. So first check there is power to the ignition module and that you have a spark. If power but no spark get a new module. They go at the most unexpected times.
    [Make sure the wire is clipped in to the distributor.]
    When mine first went I was told about the tacyometric relay and all that stuff and I nearly went insane before I tracked down the ignition module. Mine failed because someone fitted an incorrect coil so make sure yours is the exact correct one for the 505. If in doubt get a secondhand complete ignition assembly on the thick aluminium plate. If you do swap a module make sure you use some heat transfer paste where it bolts onto the heatsink. That module has since failed three times over about 5 years. It always pays to keep a good spare in the glove box along with a little tube of that paste.

  9. #9
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    ok, thanks so much again. i cant remember if my partner checked the ignition module, but we definitely have spark. just pulled the panel off from under the steering wheel to have a look at the tachy relay. will have to check another day as he is heading out bush for work for a few days. so great everyone is so helpful! thanks again.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    jervis bay nsw
    Posts
    167

    Default

    You have my sympathy I had one of these and the wiring is a nightmare .the tachymetric relay is fitted under the dash just to the right of the steering column, it operates from impulses from the ignition coil.
    I did have this problem once where the points needed cleaning.the main petrol pump sits on the chassis roughly under the passenger seat. Also there are two temp sensors under the thermostat housing, one of these is used by the ECU, I dont recall which one, but a faulty one will kill the injectors. this bosch system was used by a swag of euro cars at this time; there was a very good diagnostic on a Alpha forum from USA which helped enormously, I'll try and find it and post the reference. Try talking to a guy called Lewin, he has a pug parts shop in Brisbane and owns a couple of 505 gtis - 0733534448 or mob 0415929197
    good luck Max
    Last edited by Maxy; 5th December 2017 at 04:59 PM. Reason: found more info

  11. #11
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    HI Max, thanks again for more info. I bought rear shockys from Lewin when bringing the old girl up to roadworthy. He told me he isnt a mechanic, only sells parts! according to the Haynes manual, the relay looks rectangular, but i only see square plugs with lots of wires, which i am guessing are to do with dash lights, etc. Is it metal in colour and rectangular? thank again.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Michele View Post
    . . . Is it metal in colour and rectangular?. . .
    Do a Google search using, "tachymetric relay peugeot 505" and then select Images.


    Cheers
    Roland

    Land Rover Discovery 4
    406 Coupe D9 - Manual (2002)
    406 SV Sedan D8 - Manual (1998)
    307 Hdi Estate - Auto - (2007)
    307 Hdi Sedan - Auto - (2007)
    505GR Estate - Personal Import from UK 1971cc Manual (March 1986)
    405 Mi16x4 (all the parts ready to install into the LeMans body)

  13. #13
    cjl
    cjl is offline
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Blackalls Park NSW
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Actually a search for "tachometric relay peugeot 505" will work much better.

    Chris
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    2,365

    Default

    I think this is a 505 one.

    505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-tachy-relay2.jpg

    But I seem to remember that there are about 7 wires going to it.

    Inside will look something like this (this one is NOT depicting the innards of a 505 one....just similar)

    505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-tach-2.jpg

    Re-solder the connections.

  15. #15
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    ok, great, thanks again.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tooradin Victoria
    Posts
    144

    Default

    Hi Michele (and Beano again):

    When I bought my 505 STi it had a tachmetric relay issue which I knew of before purchase. It failed when it became hot and Cecil (Yep, him again Beano!) would coast to a halt. I would then attach the other one that came with the car and off I would go until it would happen again in about half an hour......thus I made my way from Ballarat to Tooradin (on the way to Phillip Island.) Fortunately the relay had been left hanging from the wire for ease of access The problem was exactly what Beano says...... very fine cracks in the solder in both relays..... (it's really just a small circuit board.) I fine soldering electric soldering iron (which are quite cheap really), a steady hand and the courage of your convictions and away you go! Alternatively you can obtain a new one from EAI in Box Hill Melbourne for app. $80. I did both and now have the new one bolted to the steering column (yes, it is to the right at knee height behind all the plastic dash moulding ). I also have two pefectly functioning repaired / resoldered ones as spares. It really wasn't hard but a good magnifying glass helps find the cracks on the reverse side of the board.
    Michele, the relay(if original) is housed in a black PLASTIC box similar to the thickness of two match boxes resting on one another.
    In the STi there are six wires coming out of the bottom. Unfortunately I can't speak for any other model but it is very similar to the one illustrated by Beano.
    If by any chance it happens to be the same one as used in the STi then you are more than welcome to one of my spares.I just went out to the shed and there are actually three resoldered ones, all working.
    You will have to rely on the wisdom of others to see if they are interchangeable but everybody thus far is correct......... They very easily bring you to a halt when they fail.
    BUT, there again.....I own the ultimate exampler of easily failing 505's.

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tooradin Victoria
    Posts
    144

    Default

    Hi Beano: I just went out to the shed and counted the connections on my spare STi relays. There's six on the bottom of those.

    See my reply to Michele below for a full explanation of why I have cornered the market for these ;-)

    By the way....... as Cecil's previous family loved the beach along the Great Ocean Road and the teenagers loved surfing ,it will come as no surprise to you that Cecil's alternator was full of custom made, high quality, cement comprised of fine beach sand, oil, and various other automotive fluids baked like a house brick from engine heat. Thanks for your advice or I'd still be looking, probably.

    Of course,it only took an idiot with a pressure washer to upset the fine balance between progress and the lack thereof!

    BUT, aren't we so much wiser.............and isn't he trying hard to suck up now? However, I'll let him suffer a little more before I forgive him.........Wouldn't you after $1,300 in'search fees'?
    Beano likes this.

  18. #18
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    again, cant thank you all enough for the advice. hopefully, i will have good news after the weekend, when my partner and i have time to check out all the advice. cheers, Michele.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    161

    Default

    Hi Michele,

    If you definitely have a spark, then the ignition module is working.

    This does sound very much like the fuel pump signal from the tachometric relay; I have an 88 GTi wagon which I got my hands on about 5 years ago, and someone had mucked around badly with the electrics...effectively bypassing this relay with another so that it was not functioning correctly...ie no safety cutoff. The weird thing was, after cleaning the wiring up and reconnecting the tachometric relay, which was still in situ under the the steering column, it all worked fine..no problem, so I don't know why they did it. Anyway, when you first turn on the ignition, you should hear the fuel pump run for about half a second (my pump is quite noisy, so you can hear it even with the engine running, it was like it from new) it then shuts off, so that the fuel rail is pre pressured for an easy start. Then when you crank the engine, the pump should again come to life. There are 2 fuses behind the ash tray in the forward console....one of those is the main fuel pump fuse (15 amp), and the other 10 amp one is the tank fuel pump (not uncommon for this to fail). Check they in place and not blown, you can also use them to see if there is power going through the system as described. If you have a tester light, clip one end to earth (I clip on to the door latch post in the door frame) and hold the light's sharp end into the 15A fuse, with the other hand, turn on ignition. You should see the light go on for about half a second, then go out. If not, try cranking the engine...if no light, then there is no power to the main fuel pump. I suspect that's the case...it's easier to do this rather than pull the steering column moldings off to get to the T relay. If you have power to there, it's still possible that something has been disconnected between there and the pump, but at least you know the prob is not the T relay.

    I suspect that whatever was done in the wiring clean up, something has been disconnected.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    2,365

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W View Post
    There are 2 fuses behind the ash tray in the forward console....one of those is the main fuel pump fuse (15 amp), and the other 10 amp one is the tank fuel pump (not uncommon for this to fail). Check they in place and not blown
    Michele, I think Simon is onto something here.

    By the way, when he says "forward console", you will know this as the dashboard. If you open the ashtray and press down on the "tongue", you should be able to remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W View Post

    I suspect that whatever was done in the wiring clean up, something has been disconnected.
    Or two wires have been briefly touched together and short-circuited, blowing one of those fuses behind the ashtray.

  21. #21
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    Hello all. well good news today!! We have start!! GerTi is go! My partner was able to chase the main power wire in the tachy relay back to the engine bay. it had no power (using the multimeter to test) there was another heavy wire that did have power. he connected the two as a test, trimming back the wires to only 2 strands to make a 'fuse'. she started straight away! wow what a girl, after sitting there for several weeks.
    anyway, we now need some advice regarding connecting that wire straight to the battery, or should we install and inline fuse or relay? we think that one of the relays Jeff removed may have served this purpose and therefore why she wouldn't start.
    also, can anyone advise what the other 6 terminals on the tacky connect to? sketch attached of the description on the relay cover.
    lastly, does anyone know of a website or other source where we can get a wiring diagram for this car that is better than the Haynes manual? we spoke to a retired auto electrician last night, hoping for some advice and he said it is almost impossible without a detailed wiring diagram.
    thanks again to everyone for their input. Simon and Beano, we checked the ashtray fuses first, all good. and FYI, the 1990 model is set up as follows: (as per advice from a 505 owner in Qld) when the ignition is turned on, a hall effect sensor senses the engine turning over at about 300rpm, this then tells the fuel pump - hey, they want the car to start, so start pumping fuel. this is apparently a safety setup, so the fuel doesn't pump with the engine off, in the event of an accident for example. When we did the wire test to the second one with power, i laid next to the fuel pump and it definitely does not start until the engine turns over.
    cheers and look forward to a drive next week!
    Attached Files Attached Files

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    SWOTR
    Posts
    2,906

    Default

    I can't help with your questions but it's great news that you are finally on the right track!

  23. #23
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Kuranda, Qld
    Posts
    18

    Default

    thanks Peter!

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Queensland
    Posts
    65

    Default

    Hi Michele I can't find way to send info files ,I'm too old -- PM me your email I'll send to you baz
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-underdash-inst-panel-l.jpg   505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-engine-comp-l.jpg   505 GTi wagon 1990 manual petrol - wont start-rear-compartment-acc-l.jpg  

  25. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Queensland
    Posts
    65

    Default

    OOPS I think I have!

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •