505 Not behaving
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Thread: 505 Not behaving

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 505 Not behaving

    G'day Folks,
    my 1989 505 Gti has always run smoothly since I got it but suddenly started stalling & being very difficult to start. I read up about the 'K-Jetronic' troubleshooting on another post & went searching for air leaks. Didn't take long to find one as the breather branch stub was loose on the intake 'trumpet.' I glued this back in, reassembled, & - was no better. In looking for another leak as soon as I touched the plastic thumbwheel on the breather junction it stalled. took this all the way out, put some hoseclips on breather pipes that had none then with the engine running screwed in the plastic wheel until it just started to 'hunt' idle speed up & down.

    Had improved matters by then but subsequently took car to garage for service & 'tune up,' it came back running fine but since has developed an odd syndrome. When you've been in dense traffic for a bit & engine (I'm surmising) starts to run hotter, the idle speed gets stuck high - 1,500 rpm or more. Blipping the throttle sometimes brings it down again but not always. Last weekend I removed the throttle cable, squirted lubricant into it while working the pedal, lubricated the throttle butterfly spindle. I also tightened the return spring. None of this seems to have fixed the issue. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the plastic thumbwheel (under the electric actuator thingy) does? is it some kind of idle bypass circuit? could it cause the intermittent fast running?

    Thanks,

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    Rob505 Not behaving-p1030178.jpg505 Not behaving-p1030180.jpg505 Not behaving-p1030181.jpg
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  2. #2
    cjl
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    That Is the idle speed adjustment. Those hoses are the idle circuit, not breather hoses. The little solenoid valve increases idle speed when the air conditioner is operating. The device on top of the thermostat housing is the SAD (supplementary air device), it adds air to increase idle speed on a cold motor. The SAD can fail to close properly and cause difficulty in achieving correct idle speed. There is also an idle mixture adjustment on the air flow meter, adjusted with an alan key.
    Also that has the Bosch L-Jetronic injection system not K-Jet.
    Do you have a workshop manual? If not try to buy or borrow one and read up on the idle adjustment for the ZDJL motor.
    Chris
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon

  3. #3
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    Thanks Chris, Iíll look further into the SAD & the rest of the idle circuit. Regards Rob



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    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  4. #4
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    One more thing - can anyone please tell me the location of the ECU controller in the 505 GTi (Wagon)? Iíd like to check / clean the earth connection there. Thanks Rob


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    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  5. #5
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    Hi Baldrick: Just been following your post through and I couldn't help but think if you really want to see "SAD" read my recent post on my 1984 Sti. 'Interesting' beasties aren't they?Certainly makes our bank account look 'sad'.

  6. #6
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    Hi Again Baldrick: I have a Haynes manual for the 505 and would be happy to scan and forward any relevant information/pages for you at any time if you send me a PM with your e-mail address. By the way, it states that idle MIXTURE adjustment for your LE2-Jetronic system...."is only possible using an exhaust gas analyser." While the manual has it faults this Fuel and exhaust section (Chapter 3) is pretty well illustrated and has well labelled , clear drawings as well as photos. May all be of help if needed.
    Regards. Deane.

  7. #7
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    Thanks Deane, I now have access to the Haynes book. Iím also following the link in one of the AF old posts (to http://www.hiperformancestore.com/ljetronic.htm) which has a procedure (Step 12) to check / adjust idle mixture without an EGA - uses a voltmeter connected to the output of the O2 sensor. (But thereís a lot of other checks to do first).
    Regards Rob


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    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  8. #8
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    You are about to go on a merry go round of not following a logical diagnostic procedure, first we know the car has run OK,we know that its had a "tune up" so its chances of its problem is around the things probably done recently or some inherent problems cars old or new can have with this EFI system--that's where to start.
    We know that the plastic pipe from the AFM meter to manifold cracks,we know that the idle bypass valve is sucking air,that the "tune up" should have included adjusting tappet's and removal of aforementioned main AFM hose,--cold start valves stick and loose proper function we know that,there is a very good chance that the repairer has sprayed the throttle body with CC and could have washed carbon into the shafts[or anywhere]This happens on V6 Commodores and creates problems.
    So my advice is forget the ECU ,ATM and get a can of carb cleaner with small plastic squirt tube[aero start is a bit risky] spray the whole air intake system bit by bit -- pipes hoses gaskets -carefully - engine idling --listen for speed or sound change,this can be done with idle rubber tubes squeezed with pliers etc protected by rag to lessen chance of splitting old hoses.This rules this known part out of the scenario.
    Leave AFM alone at this point as it controls mixture not air volume,hope that the throttle stop on manifold has not been changed as that is factory set at -- AIR about 7 degrees,its a no no to alter.
    After that we fix plastic air valve--I hope as I've never pulled one to bits!
    This procedure is not necessarily a fix but a good starting point,Take note of poor old Deanes problem don't get too far ahead and end up with "rectification by substitution" and if you want me to butt out just say so baz
    Last edited by broomy; 25th November 2017 at 02:00 PM.
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  9. #9
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    I'll return the favour from the other thread and second broomy's approach. The 505 ECU only controls fuel and can't give you a fast idle. A fast idle has to involve too much air. Since it seems you're getting a fast, smooth idle, it is probably air that HAS gone through the AFM (so the ECU knows to inject extra fuel). Best culprit is the idle/SAD plumbing and valves.

    To answer your question though, the GTI ECU lives above the glove box. Not much fun to get at, and you won't need to. I don't think Haynes even mentions it.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
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  10. #10
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    Thanks Baz,
    Iíll never tell you to butt out, all opinions welcomed here. As it turns out I am in danger of following an illogical sequence as I drifted a bit from the sequence given by Greg Gordon in the link I gave above.
    Anyway yesterday mornings efforts have proved the SAD is OK. I removed it, cleaned with CC, observed there was a hole in it (cold), then heated it to see that it closed. I am in bad books for this because the missus returned early from the shops to find me cooking roast SAD for elevenses.
    I also tested the ohms on the AFM per the Haynes book (all OK)
    I wanted to remove the oxygen sensor to clean that but couldnít undo the fiddly little Bosch connectors in the inaccessible location under the master cyls.
    Still got to resolve that thereís definitely no air leaks (air leaks No.1 cause of issues, bad earths No.2 according to GG), will try your suggestion.
    Regards Rob


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    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  11. #11
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    Thanks Rob,
    I found the ECU, havenít yet removed it to clean the earth.
    In summary so far:
    Some air leaks traced & repaired (but more may still exist)
    AFM resistances between terminals checked OK
    Earths cleaned on ignition module & inlet manifold connection.
    SAD removed, cleaned & checked (except for electric resistance as this is just auxiliary heater - will still work if this fails).
    Car is better from idle point of view but not 100%. Also cold starting has become a pig (it fires immediately stalls then needs lots of churning to get it going) this last apparently a common issue with several possible causes according to G.Gís article on L-Jet.
    Also took a plug out yesterday - tip was off-white colour. Definitely not running rich (though thereís a fuel smell after the cold start shermozzels).
    Regards Rob


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    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  12. #12
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    Chris, Deane, Baz, & Rob,
    thanks for the suggestions, I've been away earning a crust for the last week or so so not much happened in regards to checking or looking further into the fault. Friday it did 100 kM back home (with one incidence of fast-idle according to my wife). I took the opportunity this am to remove a sparkplug (now that I bought myself a 'toy' size socket) just to see what the colour could tell me about mixture strength. Doesn't seem to be too much amiss with that (bit lean if anything). After the plug study I started up (no issues) and with the engine idling sprayed generous quantities of 'Start ya Bastard' all over the bypass hoses, around the inlet manifold & along the breather pipes including the one to the brake servo. Result - engine purred along steadily no matter what / where I sprayed. Don't think I have an air leak now.
    Bad Earths (I've already checked some) are a remaining possibility - apparently the 'official' Bosch troubleshooting guide lists bad earths as a possible cause of 80% of problems covered, including driveability during warmup, starting, 'starts-then immediately stalls,' irregular idle, lack of power, high emissions, high fuel consumption - hmmmmm, looks like I need to explore that one further.
    The other thing I've not looked at yet is the fuel pressure, I'd like to change the fuel filter first - that's one of the things the garage didn't do when they had the car recently as they couldn't source a replacement ('Supercheap' Lists a replacement on their website - 'Ryco SPO761700' - anyone know if this fits OK?), also the rubber hose in the engine bay going to the fuel pressure regulator looks fairly ratty so I'd better do that, plus I don't yet have a pressure gauge to check the thing.
    The other thing that's got me wondering is the O2 sensor (Bosch Recommendation is to change every 80,000 kM apparently). Had a quick look last w/e & the connector is in an inaccessible place under the master cyls (anyone got a 'magic' trick for those Bosch connectors? up to now I've used three small screwdrivers - one to prise LHS, one to jam LHS once prised, one to jam RHS once prised following LHS - but that doesn't look like any fun from underneath the car working a handspan from a red hot exhaust :-/) The O2 sensor doesn't seem to unplug at the sensor - only at the 'hidden' connector.
    505 Not behaving-img_2451.jpg
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

  13. #13
    cjl
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    Those connectors are almost impossible to get to from above or below. It can be done, I replaced one a few years ago. I seem to recall putting the hoist up and down several times and lots of profanity. If I was doing it again i would make up an extension to the wires and put connectors in a more accessible spot.
    Good luck,
    Chris.
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon

  14. #14
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    That plug colour looks perfect -- which gives a pretty clean bill of health to the whole EFI, including the 02 sensor.

    You've already lubed the throttle cable, spindle, and tightened the return spring. Is it possible there's something fluttering in the breeze that sometimes comes between spindle and throttle stop? Another not very likely possibility is the idle-up solenoid for the aircon -- perhaps its wire is rubbing somewhere and leaves you with a fast idle while it's grounded? I admit I'm struggling here, but stick by what I said -- a fast idle can't be caused by fuel alone.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  15. #15
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    I meant to mention, fuel filter for a VL Commodore was just the same as mine -- don't know if the later GTIs went to something different. Ryco list it as Z168.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    Thanks Chris, thanks Rob
    Itíll be back to using the car for a week now & Ďmonitoringí will clean up some more Ďearthsí next w/e. Regards Rob


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    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

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    As I said on that other thread it is most likely to be the ignition module. I went through a similar merrygoround here when I first got my 505 and had similar hard starting and symptoms. I nearly towed the car to the tip before finding it had the wrong coil which had caused a slow decline of the ignition module. When that finally dies the car won't start at all and there will be no fuel either as they are linked at the ECU. Every time my 505 started playing up since then over several years it has turned out to be that pesky little ignition module. Always keep a good one in the glovebox.
    But for some reason everyone goes through a million other hoops before replacing that most likely and cheap option.
    Hope this helps.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    That's great information, Luthier !

    I remember someone here once saying that the ignition module is used on at least one other brand of car. I think it might be a Bosch module and that it is used on certain Volvos.

    Can you or anyone else here confirm or deny this ?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Can you or anyone else here confirm or deny this ?
    Sure. The module is a Bosch 0 227 100 123. Follow this link and click on "Suitable Vehicles" and you'll see that the 123 module has been used on many vehicles.

    My experience is different from luthier's. I've never needed to replace the 123 module and it has put up with a fair bit of abuse when I was converting to Megasquirt. Perhaps I've been lucky. I'd be very surprised if a sporadic fast idle were caused by a faulty ignition module.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  20. #20
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    Rob you are probably right, but it's this kind of thing I'm talking about,
    Car is better from idle point of view but not 100%. Also cold starting has become a pig (it fires immediately stalls then needs lots of churning to get it going) this last apparently a common issue with several possible causes according to G.G’s article on L-Jet.
    Also took a plug out yesterday - tip was off-white colour. Definitely not running rich (though there’s a fuel smell after the cold start shermozzels).
    And to compensate he's screwed the fast idle up so when it intermittently works it idles too high. Thus if I'm right it will need screwing back in once the new module fixes the problem. [If I'm right, not really 100% sure, but having had this intermittent bad running thing so many times now and having fixed it Every time with another module I just reckon it should be the first response after checking inlet air hoses for leaks of course.]
    There is also the fuel pressure regulator if it's been running so lean but the ignition module failing can also cause a lean situation because whenever it cuts out the fuel also cuts out.

    I'd be looking at the FPR before the filter and change both if you find a lot of crap in the regulator.
    It's always nice to have a spare reg as they are so expensive you don't want to swap it unnecessarily.
    Those O rings need to be good as well of course.
    Last edited by luthier; 5th December 2017 at 05:24 PM.

  21. #21
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    That's a very good point. Has he made the rough-running car idle by opening up the air valve quite a bit? Then, when it occasionally comes good, the idle is way up. Evidence for this is that he says, when it's idling "well" that it's still not 100%.

    So I take it back. With a bit of human interference, an intermittent ignition problem could cause an intermittent "fast idle".

    Not so keen on your suggestion on the fuel pressure regulator. Filters end up blocked and should never let "a lot of crap" through. But filter problems show up under full load, not idling or starting, so I agree that he shouldn't rush to replace it.

    The spark plug (assuming all 4 look as good) suggests there isn't much wrong in the fuelling or ignition department. If there really aren't any vacuum leaks either, perhaps it's time to take the car to Lourdes and hope for a miracle.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    My experience is different from luthier's. I've never needed to replace the 123 module and it has put up with a fair bit of abuse when I was converting to Megasquirt.
    Perhaps the road to your house is not as bumpy as Luthier's. He lives way, way out in the mountains and vibration may do damage to his modules. They may be susceptible to that.
    I believe his driveway is, in reality, the stuff of legend.

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