Low KM's 505 won't go!!!! Help/advice ?
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Thread: Low KM's 505 won't go!!!! Help/advice ?

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Low KM's 505 won't go!!!! Help/advice ?

    Hi guys; My 1984 505 STi (with only a genuine 169,000 km's) has been a no go for the last week.I purchased it with all its records and service books from the original owner three years ago and it has had only limited club use since. It has no spark at all and on the advice of RACV mechanic after extensive testing had a new coil fitted. Made no difference. It was towed off to the depot in disgrace yesterday as his second visit failed to come up with any further answers....... I had to make the second service call anyway to qualify for the "free" towing didn't I?
    Any ideas out there in AF Land before I waste heaps of hours and subsequent dollars as non Peugeot types search for an answer from deep within its K-Jetronic bowels?
    Thanks in anticipation of enlightenment guys but please, no rude comments as to why I bought anSTi, okay?

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    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    How about the electronic module that is mounted near the coil?

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    Is the cam belt intact? If the problemis spark the contrl module is more likely to have failed than the coil.
    Rotor buttons can sometimes fail and even dissy caps. Get it to a Peugeot speciallist repairer and not a dealer.

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    Fellow Frogger! TassieExec's Avatar
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    Hi
    it could well be the tachymetric relay which is located on the right side of the steering column under the cowling below the dash, a faulty one will certainly stop the car from starting.
    Regards
    Neil
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    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TassieExec View Post
    . . . it could well be the tachymetric relay which is located on the right side of the steering column under the cowling below the dash . . .
    A very strong possibility!

    Disconnect the fuel line and check to see if you have flow and pressure. Use a bucket to catch any coming through, if it's working!

    Cheers
    Roland



    PS. You have sufficient fuel in the tank, I presume!
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    No disgrace in owning a STi mate-I've got a couple. As Roland says see if you have fuel an pump working -including lift pump in tank.Make sure cambelt is turning naturally.
    Forget K injection at this stage-its not as scary as they would have you believe.
    Now pull off the push on terminals on the coil one at a time [positive and negative]squeeze them up a bit-make sure they are tight on the tags then try that
    No start?,if you are handy with a ohm meter test to see if there is a pulse signal from the distributor coming into the ignition module bolted on the the alloy heat sink plate[same as coil mounted on],if you need the pin numbers say so. if you can't do that --get an Auto Elect it will save a guessing game it could distributor reluctor coil or be a cooked module--I am yet to find a 505 with heat sink paste under the module when assembled.keep us posted,
    I can help with K injection but it needs some gear to get deeper into it.not much tho'

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I second those two problems.....tachymetric relay and pickup coil in distributor.

    However the pickup coil in my GTI caused missing for some time, so it's much more likely to be the tachymetric relay.
    I repaired mine for zero dollars.
    Once you have taken off the cowling under the steering wheel, look for a box with quite a few wires going to it. From memory (about 10 years ago), it's about the size of a packet of cigarettes. It's more or less in front of your right knee.

    Open it up and you will see a printed circuit board on one side. Look at it with a magnifying glass and you will most likely see tiny, tiny cracks on the outer circumference of one or two soldered connections.

    Re-solder them.

    Or ......don't bother with the magnifying glass, and just touch the soldering iron on each joint. A tad of extra solder won't hurt.
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    Fellow Frogger! TassieExec's Avatar
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    Not to be picky, but to save any confusion, the tachymetric relay is more like a half to one third the size of a pack of cigarettes, it's the only one bolted to right side of the steering column, second what was said re repairing.
    Regards
    Neil
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    ^ Ooh, I'll give you the sulking of your life !


    Anyhow DeeCee, it has a few wires going to it. More than you would expect for an ordinary relay.

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    +1 for tach relay. Very common problem.
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    Two points:

    1. If the original problem is exactly as stated "no spark", the tachymetric relay usually fails by cutting power to the fuel pump. But fair enough, maybe it was "not a spark of life".
    2. My early GTI has the tach relay under the bonnet -- well hidden below the EFI ground connector. Perhaps the STI didn't have it at the driver's knee either.

    Low KM's 505 won't go!!!!  Help/advice ?-tachy.jpg

    Have fun,

    Rob.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Hmmmm......good point. I'm glad you're on the ball. I thought that relay might have cut out spark as well as fuel.

    Oh well.....it's a good thing to check anyhow, and easy enough to do. As Demannu said, it's a common problem.

    Next suspect in line is the distributor pickup coil, I guess. It's been 10 years since mine went bung, but I remember measuring the resistance at the plug where it plugged into the module, and being told that 800 or 900 ohms were ideal, and 500 being too low. But I can't be utterly certain of the lower (500) number, and how much is an acceptable minimum.

    And BTW, some dizzies have 3 wires going to the module, whereas others have 2. I was told that the 3rd wire is just an earth. Easy enough to test which one is earth..
    Last edited by Beano; 20th November 2017 at 09:44 PM.

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    Hi again guys.I apologise for not acknowledging all the helpful suggestions I have received but another death in the family has totally occupied us until now. To save a little time I will summarise but none of these suggested criminals has proved to be the culprit..... The control module was replaced with a new one;no difference.Tachymetric relay new in January and car happily pumping petrol ever since. It was fitted with a new fuel pump six months ago and cam belt was replaced at beginning of the year. Analysis shows distributor pulsing but no spark. Dissy cap examined minutely and found to be of sound appearance. All connections were cleaned with fine dry paper before being returned. Rotor button looked sound and solid and also cleaned before returning. Car is still in the hands of the mechanics but I will now phone and suggest coils. Is distributor reluctor coil the same as a pick up coil? Please excuse my ignorance on that one.......... but hell, I've learned a lot about 505s...........I believe the problem to be electrical despite initially being water ingress somewhere and as the car is still at the depot they can muddle on a bit longer. Should they give up I'll have to arrange for it to be transported to my regular Auto-electrician whom I trust implicitly but that is some way off yet I hope.Thanks for the helpful advice so far and it is MUCH appreciated, believe me. Deane.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Yes, reluctor is a pickup coil.

    "Analysis shows distributor pulsing but no spark".

    Have you measured the resistance ? Perhaps the pulse may not be enough ?

    It seems you are not absolutely 100% certain that the problem is electrical. I suggest you squirt some "Start Ya Bastard" into the air intake and turn over the engine to see if it kicks. It's almost pure ether and will definitely cause ignition if there is any spark

    If it doesn't kick after that, you can safely assume it is not a fuel problem.
    Non-starting engine troubleshooting always starts with separating the problem into 2 parts by determining : is it fuel or spark ?

    Don't fret....it is just a matter of finding one section which works, then following the problem back along the path...
    Last edited by Beano; 22nd November 2017 at 06:36 PM.
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    DeeCee,

    It sounds to me like you've pretty much eliminated all the likely electrical components. How about the stuff connecting these components. The wiring from the distributor up to the module is pretty flimsy. There might be pulses at the dizzy, but are they reaching the module?

    Here's my stab at what I'd start with if I were there:

    • ignition on -- make sure 12V is showing at the coil +ve terminal
    • with the multimeter on a pulse sensing setting (Hz/freq/duty cycle) and attached to coil -ve, crank engine and see if you get a reading. Something around 10Hz is what you'd expect to see with the starter cranking.

    If you get no reading, you have a problem on the low-tension side. The dependencies are distributor reluctor -> ignition module -> coil.

    If you get a reading, the problem is in the high-tension side (or in the conversion from low -> high). These dependencies are coil -> coil lead -> distributor cap -> rotor button -> plug leads -> plugs. If any of these is open circuit, or providing any other path to ground than the plug gap, there will be no spark.

    Hope that makes sense and is of some use.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    I agree with Rob,its important that the diagnosis,is carried out in a logical manner.Other wise as I said before it becomes a guessing game.
    I and others have had trouble with bad or intermittent faults with push on /spade connectors in all cars specially in older ones with age caused corrosion--these used be called Lucar terminals[probably invented by Lucas UK] frightening thought!
    Go back to beginning,car stops - a club "mechanic" starts the guessing game - would he know that this system uses a coil with less than 1 ohm resistance -doubt it?
    I worked on cars dynoing and tuning every day for many years and replaced about 2 coils a year,except Fords with Portuguese coils.lots of them.
    We don't know if the wires were replaced in the right places.
    Rob says test reluctor circuit -- yes it puts out a voltage but that would be low AC,but I think Hz might baffle a lot of mechs.
    The only way to test this is with a Scope,any mech that hasn't got scope skills these days has been left behind IMO.A scope would have tested the coil without removal.
    Looking at Robs pic there is an earth "tree" somewhere down inside the NS inner panel,I'm never looked --I will now tho' as I'll bet that ign module is earthed to it .This module is the same design as Holden and Falcon except they earthed thru' one of the holdown bolts,Peugeot modules had remote earth.
    I have read there is an earth circuit diagram for 505s ,I'd love to get one if someone has one,I know of 5 "trees" so far,these would be the place to have a good cleanup.I found the 2 rear ones and fixed the tail lights etc after a few whizz bang Auto elecs have failed.
    So this car needs a good Auto elec as we are making life for poor old DC confusing.
    In closing - I try --with limited writing skills [I'm 83 yo] but if there are any ramp Captains still lurking out there please keep your sniping for someone else,I don't mind sharing my experience with others [limited tho' it may be] but this ain't the place for smart-arses.
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    Hi and thanks once more Broomy also to Beano again and robs for his input. Briefly.....Beano: yep, first thing we did. robs: pretty much the second thing that was done(I was inside it turning the key!) Broomy: I'm 720 so I pretty much agree entirely with what you've said and 'Cecil' is now booked into our Auto Electrician whom I trust implicitly.(Cecil was named by his original owner and the rego was "CEC###".) Inevitable I suppose! BUT....now comes the interesting bit which few, if any among you, are going to believe.....
    I collected Cecil this morning, running beautifully and purring like the well known cat . The cause was four plugs that, when cold, fired and maybe ran briefly, but when hot failed simultaneously. YEP.... All FOUR AT ONCE!! Once they were replaced away we went as never before. Okay, so why is he going to the Auto Electrician on Wednesday?? BECAUSE, half way home the temperature light and brake lights began flicking on and off once I reached 70kph, glowing steadily @ speed until going out again @ app 120kph (I never said that!!) Between that and 70kph they glowed like Xmas lights. Temperature gauge was rock solid where it should have been and gave the lie to all this carry on. The lights would flicker @ 70 but went out below that.When I rang to book it in, 'He Who Is Highly Skilled' just said..." Yeah, probably a brake sensor. I can analyse and fix that for you;not a problem!" Men such as that waded ashore @ Troy. As for me? I believe my car is possessed and treats me with supreme gallic contempt!
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    PS: I'm 72 NOT 720. Even the keyboard hates me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by broomy View Post
    I and others have had trouble with bad or intermittent faults with push on /spade connectors in all cars specially in older ones with age caused corrosion
    This extends to the relay bases as well since they have similar crimped connections inside them to wiping contacts. Often you can get a few more years just by unplugging and replugging connections (scrubbing out the gunk) and with a robust clean and some contact lubricant/cleaner/enhancer another life again. But like with many things if you find one or two bad connections its likely there are many many more nearby just waiting to fail the same way.
    406 HDi

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Hi DeeCee,
    Fantastic to hear your success....and quite an odd occurrence.

    In my 505, the temperature and brake warning lights began flicking on and off when my alternator brushes wore out.

    I thought it was a worn out brake pad sensor, but when my battery went flat, I realized it was the alternator warning.

    It's possible that at different speeds the graphite brushes touch.....or not. Easy enough to check output voltage, anyway.

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    Glad your car is going but I'm afraid I can't buy the 4 plugs going simultaneously,especially if ether was fired into intake system. I thought the verdict from club bloke or club contractor there was no spark.
    Even the weakest spark and the stuftest plug will fire with ether.I don't like guessing but I suspect someone did a "wiggle test" and found the fault,whether that was found before or after the plug replacement,we'll never know,maybe they called in a sparkie.
    This is not to malign any particular mech or workshop , but to point out what I have said before --with a scope and trained people [which is mandatory these days in a workshop ] this system could have been checked in 30 mins [or less] for a "no spark" condition or even very high "required spark signal"-meaning plug won't fire due to high resistance too wide plug gap,if low RSS means spark is going to earth somewhere.
    - The fuel pump can be tested for running and armature pattern with scope,but pressure is a gauge test which is obviously different..
    .Any other way is what I call 'rectification by substitution' as it starts a guessing game where either the Mech runs out of ideas and parts to fit or the customer runs out of patience or money,
    Diagnosis is what I did amongst other mundane things- by the time owners reached me they had run out of money and loathed mechs generally,I would like to say I fixed 'em all I didn't but I had a fair success rate due to training, research [constant] and the right gear and learning how to use it.
    I still use a scope not like the ones I had in the 1960s big monsters on caster wheels, but a portable Pico,very small.needs laptop tho',I use the base model tho'.It weighs about 450 grams.
    The Automotive Pico model has built in software to connect up to a car ,check, battery, compression, spark, starter draw,alternator --the full monte in minutes its reasonably priced free software,or you can buy a Yank top of the line for about US$10k plus US$1k for yearly updates you would need to be using this one every to pay for it.
    Sorry to belabor the subject but when I think of people getting stitched up by mugs it sticks in my hooter, baz

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    Thanks for that info Beano I'll copy it and pass it onto the ''Sparky"........Who knows what time and dollars it may save?

    In fact , thanks to all of you for your input. This really is a great pond isn't it?

    Normally the brake sensor would be the logical culprit wouldn't it?

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    Yeah Broomy, I thought it a bit odd but was just grateful to have it going again. "Rectification by substitution" is exactly what happened

    and explains why I now have a new coil, ignition module and set of plugs and hole in the bank account.

    RACV of course will only tow you to the closest depot, even if it is in the opposite and further direction to your less than 12km distant

    electrician! Now to tackle the flickering brake and temperature warning lights!

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    Well, it didn't take Cecil long to fall from grace AGAIN. The flickering warning lights turned out to be the alternator/voltage regulator as per Beano's warning....Thanks mate!
    Cecil doesn't do things by halves does he? Alternator so full of "Gloop" (new technical term provided by electrician) gumming things up that electrician considered it a waste of time to 'clean it up' and put brushes in it only to probably have to rip it out again. I managed to acquire the last one on the shelf from AEI and it is going in on Monday........ That's it!!. I don't care how few kilometres he's done or how pristine the interior......... so much as a hiccup and my fairy godmother will be changing him into a Toyota or a Subaru. We have an Outback as our "real" car and Cecil was always only meant to keep our "project" 203 company. As soon as the motor trimmer does her interior in April, Poubelle will at long last,be finished and can take her place as belle of the ball.......Meanwhile Cecil can resume life as a pumpkin.........PERMANENTLY! You could grow a good crop pf something interesting in there couldn't you with all that glass?
    CECIL, HEED THE WARNING!! Last chance old son!!
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