My gti6 hates winter mornings
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Icon9 My gti6 hates winter mornings

    I'm starting to find new depths in 'character' of my beloved '6. Don't get me wrong, I still love her. But she does not like 10 degree mornings, and it's only going to get colder

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    She starts up perfectly and all that. But I've noticed a couple of things. First and foremost is that damn gearchange, until I've driven a couple of mins with a few gearchanges, it is definitely anything but slick shifting. Quite notchy especially between 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. This goes away as the car warms up.

    Secondly is the clutch, it has a weird notch feeling in the pedal halfway thru the travel. The notch goes away after a few minutes when the car is warmed up, and the clutch gets marginally lighter. But the gti6 clutch is still damn heavy! I'd go nuts if I was driving the car in Sydney traffic. Either that, or I'd have weird mismatched calves!

    Can the clutch be made significantly lighter? I'm not asking for a japanese style clutch necessarily, but surely there's got to be a happy level. What on earth makes these clutches so damn heavy in the first place!? It's not like the car has 545 kW dammit.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! jfn180's Avatar
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    thats the same thing that happens to my 306 in the mornings so wat i do now,is that i warm my car up for 3mins,some people think its a waste of time doing that but i found it the best thing to do in the mornings

    and yes the 306 clutch is heavy,i use to drive in the city every morning and its i use to go nuts in the morning stopping and starting every 2mins
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  3. #3
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    If the clutch is ok after the car warms up I wouldn't bother, My 206 on very cold mornings lacks power and flat spots in the low revs for about 30 seconds to a minute after first starting it, once it's a bit warmer it's all good.

    I would say you could make your clutch lighter possibly by adjusting the release fork? Or maybe the Pressure plate springs? Anything to do with changing any part of your clutch will cost a lot of $$$$ due to the labour involved getting to it.



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    Thanks guys. I just get in and start driving it straight away, but I change gears really slowly for the first couple of minutes. Yeah it'd be expensive to do anything with modifying the actual clutch. I might try that the next time I need a new clutch, though that won't be for a while I'm sure.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  5. #5
    nJm
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    The 306 does not have a heavy clutch. I've driven one and thought it felt nice and light compared to my 505. The Ciroen C3 on the other hand has a ridiculously light clutch. I like some substance to it, but I wouldn't mind it if it was a bit lighter in the 505. One of my friends drove it for the first time and said it feels like it is trying to make you stall. It has quite a lot of resistance, and feels like it is trying to spring back some what. Still, you get used to it and develop some muscles in your left leg
    Nick
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  6. #6
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Jude, my old GTi6 has a new clutch and when installed by a good workshop, it can be as light as anything from the Japanese stables, certainly as light as my ST.

    As for cold starts, yep, I found the GTi6 was nochier and very moody in cold weather. It warms up and is OK after that.

    We switched to full synthetic Neo Oil for the gearbox and that improved cold starts.

  7. #7
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    Jude don't worry, just drive gently until it warms up and then it's all fine, it's the same with my 205 and I live in the Adelaide Hills so imagine how cold it is the mornings up here... Am running Syntrans (hope that's right) in the box which makes a little difference.
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    ditto that what Lincoln said about the gear change. Although I still found it to be very un-coperative in the 2nd gear until the 1st few km's elapsed.

    The clutch is just heavy, I guess it has to do with the power delivery. I'd rather put up with heavy clutch then the slipping clutch.
    the notchy cable I had since 35,000kms on the odometer (number of k's when I bought the car) , it used to lock up occasionally half way through the return travel aboutl once in a month. Some others reported it more often. New cable is your answer, or some dry lube? Wonder how easy it would be to get hydraulic clutch conversion on the pugs?

    In the end I just put up with it... call it "character"?

    Nowdays my clutch is just like a dream, my left calf returned to normal size due to lack of use....

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    Yeah - I couldn't beleive it when I found out the GTi6 had a damn cable clutch - cheap crap, but it's certainly not comparatively heavy from my experience. A previous machine of mine had a clutch nicknamed 'the bullworker' - I really did have a heavier calf and thigh on my left leg! Mind you, I hate the GTi6 in traffic with that taaalllllllll 1st gear. This is easy to get around - just don't drive in traffic!

    I tend to startup, let the oil splash around for 30 secs, and just drive off gently until the oil temp reaches 90C or so. With the 7C degree mornings lately, it takes a while to warm up! Definately notchy in the gearbox when it's cold, but it's just a matter of changing slowly.
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    rek
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    Lesson #1 I learnt when I first drove my GTi6 is that this was not a typical Japanese gearbox -- it doesn't like to be rushed, especially in the morning. Instead, it prefers to ease into the day slowly, preferably with a croissant and espresso. (This works well for the car owners too )

    I also had a weird notchy clutch cable half way through the travel, the replacement of the cable fixed it. Apparently the self adjusting thingo was buggered or something.

    My clutch is heavy, but not majorly so. It is sometimes difficult to get into gear, but last service they mentioned that it's most likely to be a spring in the pressure plate not being quite right (or something like that -- I can't remember 100%), which due to the amount of labour wasn't worth fixing up until the clutch needs replacement.

    I actually don't mind the tall first gear. My old car had a 1st gear that redlined at 40kph, which made it basically useless for anything but a "start" gear. Plus there are benefits to being able to get to 100kph in 2nd
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  11. #11
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    I have the $75 Neo gearbox oil - made a big difference to cold morning gear changes. You don't really want lightening fast gear changes when everything's cold anyway, so maybe it's a hint? I dunno.

    Derek (we need a shivering smilie - it's COOOOLD at work)

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    Lincoln, yeah now I remember you mentioned something about that to me during your visit here. I still can't imagine the '6 clutch being as light as a jap' one, but I wouldn't mind that. I don't mind a bit of resistance, but it's getting quite ridiculous now. Honestly, it's currently about as stiff as a 5 litre VK commodore with a heavy duty clutch that I once tried out. Certainly stiffer now than 10,000 kms ago, though it does lighten up a bit after it's warmed up.

    Wow, so the neo synth gearbox oil made a noticable difference? I'll give that a go then. I heard somewhere that synth oils are not suited to some gearboxes though..can anyone shed light on this?

    Joel, don't you complain about living in the Adelaide hills man! I'm soooo jealous, I don't care about cold mornings it means having some nice corners to play with to and fro work!

    Hahaha the bullworker N5!? Sounds like you had to brace yourself back on the seat to push that clutch in! Thanks guys, this has cheered up my crappy morning!
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  13. #13
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    Hey Jude

    I have to admit the gearshift on my car is quite notchy when cold, especially trying to downshift back to first from second when the engine is cold. I guess it's a silly peugeot thing.
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    Well the clutch is heavy on my car, but I'm not compaining I love my car!

    Others when driving it have also commented on the clutch.
    '99 306 XSi Black Metallic

  15. #15
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Jude, the Neo Synth is a gearbox oil, I haven't heard of any problems with running a synth oil in a gearbox. The Neo lasts a very long time, as I recall it never needs replacing. However, I doubt Neo has any sizeable advantage over any other Synth oil, such as Elf (from Alan S).

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    Jude, the Neo Synth is a gearbox oil, I haven't heard of any problems with running a synth oil in a gearbox. The Neo lasts a very long time, as I recall it never needs replacing. However, I doubt Neo has any sizeable advantage over any other Synth oil, such as Elf (from Alan S).
    Thanks Lincoln, I'll try and get some Neo as well, though I'll have to get the damn thing delivered from the only distributor in Sydney somewhere . That's what I had to do with the Neo fuel injector cleaner too (which worked a treat btw). Is there only one type/grade of Neo synth oil, just so as I don't order the wrong one?

    Do you happen to know off the top of your head at which service interval the '6 needs the gearbox oil replaced?
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  17. #17
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I think ours got done at 40 or 50K, check the Peugeot website or your service manual for the exact time.

    I'm assuming this was it: http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/mtf.htm

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    the clutch i have found is heavy compared to the 206 or most other cars but i wouldn't consider it undrivable in the city

    in the just over 6 years now that i have had the GTi-6 the clutch pedal has stayed down maybe 3 times but with a flick under the pedal it has come back up

    cold mornings it has never been a car you can turn the key and take off like other cars but if you give it a min or 2 and take it easy till things are up to temp everything is fine

    all is forgiven when you find a road to let it really have a good bite at so it's all worth living with the little things in the end
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  19. #19
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    All of my pugs have had heavy clutches, it's Peugeot thing!

    Never had to replace any clutch compenents until the 406, now on it's 2nd cable, it's nearly 2ms in length. 2nd one is doing nicely (crap job 1st time around).

    I always start car, put belt on, adjust anything else and then drive off - a good minute or two to let oil get where it should and warm up!

    Enjoy the gti6 - anything with a Peugeot badge is a great car!

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    the clutch is heavy on my S16 too...though you get used to it. It's only when you drive other cars, then get back into the pug that you really notice it. But I don't mind it, I hate when you get into a riceburner and the clutch has no feel at all.

    As for cold starts, I think it's just a trait of the 306. On cold mornings I always start the car and let it idle for 5 mins or so, it makes a huge difference when driving off. Even though modern cars are supposed to be immune to the need for warm ups etc, any engine will benefit from being warmed up, even if it's just to extend engine life.

    Damo

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugrat
    the clutch is heavy on my S16 too...though you get used to it. It's only when you drive other cars, then get back into the pug that you really notice it. But I don't mind it, I hate when you get into a riceburner and the clutch has no feel at all.

    As for cold starts, I think it's just a trait of the 306. On cold mornings I always start the car and let it idle for 5 mins or so, it makes a huge difference when driving off. Even though modern cars are supposed to be immune to the need for warm ups etc, any engine will benefit from being warmed up, even if it's just to extend engine life.

    Damo
    I agree, I do like a bit of weight and feel from the clutch, but mine is starting to become ridiculous.

    As some of the more experienced people here will attest, rather than letting your engine idle for a few mins in the morning, it's better to wait a few seconds to get the oil flowing around after starting the car, but then start driving straight away, just gently avoiding revving above 2000-3000 rpm. This will get the engine up to operating temperature much quicker where the oil is working best, rather than letting it idle where it will take much longer to get the oil up to temp and more wear occuring during that time.
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  22. #22
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    My S16 had a shocking, very stiff and notchy clutch take up for ages, it sometimes felt like the cable was close to snapping (which I understand, some do). I replaced the cable and changed to synth oil, made a huge difference and was worth the $180 -odd total as it was much more pleasant to drive in the city. After a while it has started to get a little stiff again but nowhere as bad as before, I think it's something to do with a metal part being in contact with a nylon plastic part and the obvious wear associated with that. It's still a little baulky changing gears when cold but I double-declutch and heel/toe until it warms up anyway, helps the syncros. Just got the car back from service, feels like new again! Paris Creek Road............!
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    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    I hate cold mornings too.
    Maybe your car needs to go to Bali with me.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SA S16
    My S16 had a shocking, very stiff and notchy clutch take up for ages, it sometimes felt like the cable was close to snapping (which I understand, some do). I replaced the cable and changed to synth oil, made a huge difference and was worth the $180 -odd total as it was much more pleasant to drive in the city. After a while it has started to get a little stiff again but nowhere as bad as before, I think it's something to do with a metal part being in contact with a nylon plastic part and the obvious wear associated with that. It's still a little baulky changing gears when cold but I double-declutch and heel/toe until it warms up anyway, helps the syncros. Just got the car back from service, feels like new again! Paris Creek Road............!
    Mike, I just drove an S16 today! A work colleague bought one recently which had to have heaps of work done to it (done at Charles st autos actually) and he brought it in all nice and fixed today. It had all the wishbone bushes replaced and it felt very nice, noticeably tighter in the front suspension and better turn in than my gti6 (which has cracked bushes). Anyway, getting back to the topic, the S16 clutch felt heaps lighter than mine.

    I double clutch too when cold, and heel/toe change down every change down whether cold or not, though found it difficult to do in the '6 initially due to its heavy flywheel. Have fun at PARIS ck (how apt for a froggy car!)

    Warwick, I want to get the hell out of here for winter and go to Bali too. The '6 can stay here, I'm sure I won't miss it so much when I'm lazing on a beach, or at a club with a nice cocktail....
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  25. #25
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I had a clutch on my BX that got notchy. But that all stopped a few days ago; the cable broke.
    On them, they run perilously close to the engine down pipe & it stuffs the black plastic on the outer cable which allows moisture to get in through the metal wraps, rusts, abrases the plastic coating off which then starts to gring away at the inner cable until one day....kerrrack!! Party over. You haven't lived until you try to fit a clutch cable on a BX 16V..

    As regards the oils, again I can only go on BX info & I can tell you that according to the overseas guys, synthetics are a big nono in BX boxes. Everybody who has ever tried it has always ended up with crunchy synchros & notchy slow changes. I understand however that the opposite is true on Xantias and apparently it all depends on the amount of bronze parts inside the box they reckon.
    It is always a case with these gear oils that you can't play around with the viscosities of them; if they recommend an SAE80 oil, an 85/90 will cause problems with the changes (don't ask me why; that's what they all have experienced).
    On the BX, I use Castrol 80 with a dose (125ml) of Nulon G70 additive and find that works brilliantly on the 16Vs as well as the 8 valve models; both have fairly quick & smooth changes and both were slow & notchy when we bought them. Almost every Cit I have owned in the past few years has been low in gear oil when we've checked after purchasing the car & that might be a good place to start.


    Alan S
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