Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage
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Thread: Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage

  1. #1
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    Default Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage

    Managed to fit everything in, had it cosmetically enhanced, added an electric fan with sensor which will kick in at 85 degrees Celsius. but the disappointing part is the gear will not engage, when the engine is on.
    The used push fan came from a Toyota Seg, the plug cables are new and are meant for Honda SV4, they fit fine. The electronic distributor is new from a Nissan Vanette. Maybe I will need to service the carby, need to get hold of a carb kit.

    Back to the gear cannot engage issue
    Things that I confirmed to be ok
    1) Clutch master and slave seems to be working fine.
    2) when engine is off the gear engages fine
    3)With the engine running, the gear could be engaged when I lifted the rear axle so that the rear tyres do not touch the ground.
    But when I let the tyres rest back on ground level the gear cannot be engaged.

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    Any advise guys....

    Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171102_152354.jpgPug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171102_152344.jpgPug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171025_174801.jpg

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
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    Hi peugeotnut,

    That sounds pretty typical of the clutch not disengaging properly.

    Have someone operate the clutch pedal fully while you check the amount of travel at the clutch fork.

    If the travel is only a little it may mean you need to bleed the system.

    Compress the slave cylinder and hold it that way with a clamp and then bleed the system as per usual procedures.

    Cheers
    Roland.

    PS - love the work you have done. Everything is spotlessly clean and the paint job is excellent.

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
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    Hi again peugeotnut,

    The only other thing I can think of is that the clutch plate may be in backwards and is mechanically touching the flywheel bolts or rubbing in that area.

    I have seen that on other makes but I must admit, I'm not sure of it's even possible for that to be the case on a 404.

    The other possibility is it's something to do with the clutch release bearing.

    There are more knowledgeable AF 404 members who can advise more expertly on both these possibilities.

    Cheers
    Roland.

    Land Rover Discovery 4
    406 Coupe D9 - Manual (2002)
    406 SV Sedan D8 - Manual (1998)
    307 Hdi Estate - Auto - (2007)
    307 Hdi Sedan - Auto - (2007)
    505GR Estate - Personal Import from UK 1971cc Manual (March 1986)
    405 Mi16x4 (all the parts ready to install into the LeMans body)

  4. #4
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    needs bleeding ,press the little valve in the master cylinder down ,to let the air out ,neither of my manuals mention this valve ,just go through the standard bleed procedure ,i nave bled air out useing it, so have a go ,pugs
    Wildebeest and svengali0 like this.

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    Roland and Pugwash thanks.
    After several bleeding attempts, I just gave up. When I press the clutch pedal the slave shaft pushes the lever for about 8mm. The thought of placing the clutch plate in the reverse position keeps bugging my mind. Will have no choice but to remove the engine n check.

  6. #6
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    Push the centre valve in the master cylinder down whilst moving the push rod up and down with your finger, this will bleed the system quickly.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peugeotnut View Post
    When I press the clutch pedal the slave shaft pushes the lever for about 8mm. .
    It should be moving further than this. Don't take out your engine.

    The clutches of older Peugeots are notoriously difficult to bleed......though simple if you know how to.


    If what Graham Wallis ^ said doesn't work, take a look at this thread : Help needed bleeding a 206 Gti 180 clutch

    Or unscrew the bleeder nipple and make sure the tiny hole at the end of it is not rusted up. You should be able to poke a tiny piece of wire through the entire nipple.
    Last edited by Beano; 5th November 2017 at 06:16 PM.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    And if you the driven plate reversed the noise it makes when disengaging will tell you.

    A last ditch fix for the clutch, if it's bled properly and still won't disengage is to apply my "bush " fix.

    Remove the clutch slave cylinder, find a brass doover off the top of a spark plug, drop it into the master cylinder push rod hole, a little grease will hold in place.

    Then refit the clutch slave.

    It has worked every time for me and although not very elegant solves a problem.

    I think the root cause is general wear in the mechanics of the linkages.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  9. #9
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    That reminds me ,i made an adjustable push rod by cutting the existing one down fitting a small metal tube over it [an old tube spanner ]then a 10 mm bolt with two nuts on it sticking out the top ,by adjusting the nuts ,all the free play between the plunger and the master cylinder piston can be adjusted out ,if you reach down behind the engine and move the part of the pedal that comes through the firewall ,up and down ,this is lost travel, it can also be eliminated by putting something up the piston like a plug cap; [as mentioned above ] or a ball bearing ,i used the ball bearing method ,before modifying the rod, pugs
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    And if you the driven plate reversed the noise it makes when disengaging will tell you.

    A last ditch fix for the clutch, if it's bled properly and still won't disengage is to apply my "bush " fix.

    Remove the clutch slave cylinder, find a brass doover off the top of a spark plug, drop it into the master cylinder push rod hole, a little grease will hold in place.

    Then refit the clutch slave.

    It has worked every time for me and although not very elegant solves a problem.

    I think the root cause is general wear in the mechanics of the linkages.
    I think Robmac meant to say the master.....not the slave.

    Not being picky....just trying to avoid confusion.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Yes indeed, thank you for correcting me.
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  12. #12
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    really looks good,I am just refitting my motor-wish i had painted it red! Want ask how have you fitted the thermo switch for the fan?

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    In the past I found that slightly lengthening the m/cyl pushrod, [the ball bearing spacer sounds good].
    This made for clean engagement of reverse and first gears.
    Hands up those who reckon the clutch m/cyl is a p, poor set up? Leaving itself succeptible to corrosion via moisture in the fluid.
    robmac likes this.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I'd like see some pushrod length adjustment, probably at the slave cylinder.

    And feel the clutch fork system is an engineering abomination.

    It's something to replace at the same time with every clutch replacement.
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    Guys,
    Firstly would like to thank all of you for the various information and tips.
    Yesterday I went for the kill, I removed the engine again and found the culprit to be the clutch plate. The new one fitted was potruding to far to the back hence blocking the clutch bearing travel distant.

    Picture one show the new clutch plate
    Picture two shows the distant of the old clutch plate
    In the fourth picture you can see the scratch marks between the bearing and the clutch gear.

    Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171106_101656.jpg Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171106_103211.jpg Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171106_103555.jpgPug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171106_111009.jpg

    If you place both clutch plates on a flat table they are of same thickness. Now to search for the right plates.

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    This picture will show the difference. The one on the left is the new clutch plate and on the right is the old unit. When the clutch plate is mounted on the flywheel that's when the difference will clearly show.
    Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171106_210104.jpg

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Roland's Avatar
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    Hi Peugeotnut,

    Clearly the new plate is quite different from the old one in the centre section.

    It's smaller in size and thicker than the original.
    And the friction material has a larger inside diameter which means less surface area.

    So, if it's a Peugeot plate then it's the wrong one for that engine.

    Where did you get the new plate from?
    Can you return it and find out why the incorrect plate was supplied?

    Also, has the clutch release bearing suffered any damage?

    Cheers
    Roland

    Last edited by Roland; 7th November 2017 at 04:07 AM.
    Land Rover Discovery 4
    406 Coupe D9 - Manual (2002)
    406 SV Sedan D8 - Manual (1998)
    307 Hdi Estate - Auto - (2007)
    307 Hdi Sedan - Auto - (2007)
    505GR Estate - Personal Import from UK 1971cc Manual (March 1986)
    405 Mi16x4 (all the parts ready to install into the LeMans body)

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    It's possible the new plate is simply an updated version of the old unit.

    I recall noting similar a few years ago.

    I'd be offering up and investigating if there is likely gridlock.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


  19. #19
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    Roland,
    It was my mistake not to double check since they look the same and was labelled Pg404.
    I have another new clutch plate of similar dimension and shape and items cannot be return. Both this new clutch plates were bought from different spare dealers here. It's only written on the clutch plate with marker Pg404. So it's a good lesson for me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxy View Post
    really looks good,I am just refitting my motor-wish i had painted it red! Want ask how have you fitted the thermo switch for the fan?
    The thermo switch is of M16 size with a thread pitch of 1.5. Just welded on a nut to the bottom section of the radiator. Welded the nut with a few spot of copper and coated with solder lead. The aftermarket Honda's have thermo switches that turn ON at 71 degrees Celcius. Not to sure what is the thread size I did not want too low a temp since that will turn "ON" the fan almost immediately and would stay "ON". Most original thermo switches on cars have a turn "ON" temp at 92 degrees Celcius, but not to sure of the Austarlian specification on this.

    Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171107_092227.jpg Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171107_092239.jpg Pug 404 engine installed but gear won't engage-20171107_101358.jpg

    Alternatively you could pull a wire from your high voltage coil and connect it to terminal 86 on your relay.
    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by peugeotnut; 7th November 2017 at 01:27 PM.

  21. #21
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    The wire to provide power to the thermoswitch is in the same loom as the headlight wiring- check the loom at the right side of the radiator top tank. On cars with the fixed fan it was often run back across the front of the car and isn't connected to anything. (wire 57 from memory) The other wire, from the switch to the water pump, goes up the timing chain cover, which should have metal tabs that can be bent out to hold it.

    Quote Originally Posted by peugeotnut View Post
    The thermo switch is of M16 size with a thread pitch of 1.5. Just welded on a nut to the bottom section of the radiator. Welded the nut with a few spot of copper and coated with solder lead. The aftermarket Honda's have thermo switches that turn ON at 71 degrees Celcius. Not to sure what is the thread size I did not want too low a temp since that will turn "ON" the fan almost immediately and would stay "ON". Most original thermo switches on cars have a turn "ON" temp at 92 degrees Celcius, but not to sure of the Austarlian specification on this.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Alternatively you could pull a wire from your high voltage coil and connect it to terminal 86 on your relay.
    Hope this helps.
    peugeotnut likes this.

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