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    In many fields there is a concerted move to having LESS maintenance. The overall reliability of equipment is INCREASING, which is counter-intuitive. But maintenance can be a source of inducing faults, and hence lowering of reliability.

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    As for over-servicing - why? I'd use decent quality oil, and do them when the service book recommends it. Follow the book - the experts developed it for a reason.

    I know people will look to 'sealed for life' gearboxes and say - "they aren't reliable - so my statement is disproved!", but in the original intent, those gearboxes probably used a different (and expensive) oil. The beancounters probably decided to cut back on the up-front cost of that oil to increase profits. The risk of using lower-quality oil was transferred to the owners - lo and behold, those 'sealed for life' gearboxes had less reliability than originally intended.

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    I believe after-market people generally have a better quality of work because they rely more on word-of-mouth reputation. If they get rubbished, they lose their livelihood. Many people still have the impression they MUST take their car to a dealer to preserve the warranty.

    I have had an after-market mechanic inform me all about what recalls and so forth were relevant to my car, so I feel that my car is no better or worse performance/safety/reliability-wise from that perspective.

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    In the end I got sick of trying to find a me chanic I was happy with, installed a hoist, do it all myself. I figure I can screw it up just as well as they can, at a lot less cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukbilt1 View Post
    In many fields there is a concerted move to having LESS maintenance. The overall reliability of equipment is INCREASING, which is counter-intuitive. But maintenance can be a source of inducing faults, and hence lowering of reliability.

    As for over-servicing - why? I'd use decent quality oil, and do them when the service book recommends it. Follow the book - the experts developed it for a reason.

    I know people will look to 'sealed for life' gearboxes and say - "they aren't reliable - so my statement is disproved!", but in the original intent, those gearboxes probably used a different (and expensive) oil. The beancounters probably decided to cut back on the up-front cost of that oil to increase profits. The risk of using lower-quality oil was transferred to the owners - lo and behold, those 'sealed for life' gearboxes had less reliability than originally intended.
    Although it may well be the case that the manufacturer/s deem "life" to be ten years (eg). If so, then the "sealed for life" statement is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukbilt1 View Post
    I believe after-market people generally have a better quality of work because they rely more on word-of-mouth reputation. If they get rubbished, they lose their livelihood. Many people still have the impression they MUST take their car to a dealer to preserve the warranty.

    I have had an after-market mechanic inform me all about what recalls and so forth were relevant to my car, so I feel that my car is no better or worse performance/safety/reliability-wise from that perspective.
    If you can't trust a workshop, go elsewhere I guess.

    As you note, you don't need to take your car to the dealer to preserve the warranty. However, you certainly do need to make sure it is serviced using the correct lubricants and methods on the same schedule if you want to preserve the warranty. Use the wrong oil or keep no records and you may find that claim for a turbo late in the warranty period is declined due to incorrect servicing. Some aftermarket warranty products are even more prescriptive than the factory, so it's important top understand what cover you have.

    The better technicians and workshops outside the dealer network would be quite capable of performing most of the recalls and service campaigns, except that are not provided with the parts, instructions and have no way to be paid for the work. You might not receive a letter for the service campaigns because they are often deemed quality issues that can wait until the next service rather than possibly affecting safety or reliability requiring a recall. There is a difference. So, the service campaigns will probably remain outstanding if the car never visits a dealer for service work. There's certainly nothing like a full recall to get people back to visit the dealer network. The cynical could view recalls as cheap sales lead generation / information gathering given some of them are quite low cost repairs. You certainly wouldn't put Takata airbags in that category though. A disaster in every sense that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    So it takes old dirty oil for an engine to become run in.
    Hmmm Interesting concept.

    Jo
    Why stop at changing oil after 5000 Km? Why not after every run? If it's being overserviced the car will be in the workshop more than it is on the road, thus it will never be run-in.....

    Oil doesn't wear out. It gets contaminated with liquids and solids. An oil filter has a nominal particle removal size that will take out the solids, but no smaller than 4-5 microns. Any smaller, and the filter will remove the very necessary additive package. If a manufacturer states it is acceptable to have one filter/oil change per 12 months or 15,000 Km they say this based on having tested a few engines to destruction. Just a few more than you or your mate the mechanic that overservices your engine have!

    Whilst oil quality has some bearing on the running in process it is, of course, more the way the engine is treated during the process.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianrobbo View Post
    As a professional Mechanic I was workshop controller for a dealership and the only qualified mechanis where me The service manager and the service advisors. Would I tell anyone to go to a dealership for anything other than waranty recall items
    , I don't think so.

    Many years ago workshops used to display a sign advising customers about their staff, like= 'We proudly employ 5 qualified A grade mechanics, 2 unqualified servicemen, 1 apprentice motor mechanic". Don't see that any more, the whole system of acquiring a trade is crap. Anyone can get his ticket after only two years working in the trade or by joining a Union. He can then get a job at a dealership, do a couple of introductory one day courses about the latest door locks or something and adopt the title of Factory Trained. It's a joke.
    Last edited by shanadoo; 11th October 2017 at 08:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Why stop at changing oil after 5000 Km? Why not after every run? If it's being overserviced the car will be in the workshop more than it is on the road, thus it will never be run-in.....

    Oil doesn't wear out. It gets contaminated with liquids and solids. An oil filter has a nominal particle removal size that will take out the solids, but no smaller than 4-5 microns. Any smaller, and the filter will remove the very necessary additive package. If a manufacturer states it is acceptable to have one filter/oil change per 12 months or 15,000 Km they say this based on having tested a few engines to destruction. Just a few more than you or your mate the mechanic that overservices your engine have!

    Whilst oil quality has some bearing on the running in process it is, of course, more the way the engine is treated during the process.
    Ok ÖTwo cars for sale, same price same specÖ.
    One has had 2 services, the other has had 7.

    Which looks like the best buy??

    As luck would have it I chose the one with 7 stamps in the book.

    Turns out my aforementioned i30 with dubious servicing was serviced by the same mob who had (on paper) touched the other Koleos twice.
    Glad I didn't buy that one.

    I not going to discuss the merit or folly of changing oil at 5000km intervals, because I don't do that, the previous owner did.

    In a year or 10k km, my trusted and incredibly well respected mechanic (among the RS gang), who is neither my mate nor someone who over services will change the oil, and do whatever is required.
    Apparently he owns a Koleos too, which is not a bad thing either.
    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 9th October 2017 at 02:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanadoo View Post

    Incidentally a good mate was called Ian Robbo****. Haven't seem him for centuries now.
    Knows 504s and 505s like the back of his hand ?

    Sometimes a bit of a fathead but basically a great bloke ?

    We have a match !

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukbilt1 View Post
    In many fields there is a concerted move to having LESS maintenance. The overall reliability of equipment is INCREASING, which is counter-intuitive. But maintenance can be a source of inducing faults, and hence lowering of reliability.

    As for over-servicing - why? I'd use decent quality oil, and do them when the service book recommends it. Follow the book - the experts developed it for a reason.

    I know people will look to 'sealed for life' gearboxes and say - "they aren't reliable - so my statement is disproved!", but in the original intent, those gearboxes probably used a different (and expensive) oil. The beancounters probably decided to cut back on the up-front cost of that oil to increase profits. The risk of using lower-quality oil was transferred to the owners - lo and behold, those 'sealed for life' gearboxes had less reliability than originally intended.

    Agree 'follow the recommended servicing intervals'. It's not rocket science. Long service intervals, short ownership period plus competitive trade back deals all mean reduced running costs over the life of the vehicle. That's all it's about, the money. People get confused about the statement 'sealed for life' but it simply means for the life of the vehicle with the first owner, but with limitations. For instance the vehicle is not expected to stay with the first owner for say Ks400,000, or for 5/10 years or more. Life does not refer to the length of time before said vehicle meets the crusher.
    The Al4 transmission website lists 30000 Ks between oil change. PSA says sealed for life. Proof.

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    I've mentioned this before, but the Citroen Maintenance and Warranty Guide, issued when Ateco ran the show, gives the recommended fluids for the AL4, 4HP20 and AM6 boxes and lists as Standard Operations - "Every 60,000 kms - Automatic transmission oil change is recommended".

    "Lifetime" is too rubbery, particularly when cars are expected here to run well for 20 years or more.

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    The cynical could view recalls as cheap sales lead generation / information gathering given some of them are quite low cost repairs. You certainly wouldn't put Takata airbags in that category though. A disaster in every sense that one.


    David S.

    Referring to the Takata disaster, I read a website the other day which is selling a hardwired electronic gadget to fool the ECU and turn off the airbags.

    Frightening, but don't know if it works on PSA stuff. But wish there was a similar thing to turn off ABS when I had my C5.

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    In Brisbane, Euroserve and Peugeotech are both excellent independent options. Ditch the dealer.

    Did I read correctly that a 308 was pulling a 3.5 ton caravan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanadoo View Post
    The cynical could view recalls as cheap sales lead generation / information gathering given some of them are quite low cost repairs. You certainly wouldn't put Takata airbags in that category though. A disaster in every sense that one.


    David S.

    Referring to the Takata disaster, I read a website the other day which is selling a hardwired electronic gadget to fool the ECU and turn off the airbags.

    Frightening, but don't know if it works on PSA stuff. But wish there was a similar thing to turn off ABS when I had my C5.
    Any airbag can be bypassed all these are are a resistance with a plug or pins on them and should be illegal to import unless you are using them for diagnostic reasons.



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    PSA mostly use Autoliv airbags AFAIK. I don't think there has been exposure to Takata with the ASX-in-drag C4 AirCross and 4008. Maybe, some of the older co-produced models like C1 could have, but it wasn't sold here. If you follow the stickers on some now older models, it is suggested the airbags be disabled after 10 years, but I can't imagine very many people have done that. An airbag may still go off in old age, but you do have to wonder if it will still deploy as designed as age advances. There has to come a time when it is genuinely safer to disable old airbags than leave them active.

    Turning off the ABS is easy. Pull out the fuse. In old age, will an infrequently active DOT4 ABS system become dangerous and jam in the brake off state??? You do want working ABS on an old Xantia with that silly spring under the brake pedal. Trust me on that. A drive day test at Oran park (before the houses invaded) demonstrated that it was much harder to control with that spring and no ABS. XM has a similar arrangement. Not an issue with Pugs or later Citroens as they are all regular DOT4 systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    PSA mostly use Autoliv airbags AFAIK. I don't think there has been exposure to Takata with the ASX-in-drag C4 AirCross and 4008. Maybe, some of the older co-produced models like C1 could have, but it wasn't sold here. If you follow the stickers on some now older models, it is suggested the airbags be disabled after 10 years, but I can't imagine very many people have done that. An airbag may still go off in old age, but you do have to wonder if it will still deploy as designed as age advances. There has to come a time when it is genuinely safer to disable old airbags than leave them active.

    Turning off the ABS is easy. Pull out the fuse. In old age, will an infrequently active DOT4 ABS system become dangerous and jam in the brake off state??? You do want working ABS on an old Xantia with that silly spring under the brake pedal. Trust me on that. A drive day test at Oran park (before the houses invaded) demonstrated that it was much harder to control with that spring and no ABS. XM has a similar arrangement. Not an issue with Pugs or later Citroens as they are all regular DOT4 systems.
    There is never a time when a disabled old airbag is safer ,the asx in psa land was never a problem auto liv stuff is really reliable .


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    pulling fuses didn't work on the C5, engine power management goes into downgrade. Enough said about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Degrees View Post
    In Brisbane, Euroserve and Peugeotech are both excellent independent options. Ditch the dealer.

    Did I read correctly that a 308 was pulling a 3.5 ton caravan?
    Ha Ha, good one. Might work with certain modifications, drop in a Toyoto V8 diesel, tune it for 26/Lt per 100 Km and give it a try.

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    It would be possible, even if uncomfortable and in low gears for much of the time. I pulled as much and more years ago in a diesel Land Rover (46 kW/140 Nm) with only a fraction of the power and torque available from current PSA diesels.

    I don't know how the 308 would have steered with that load.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    I
    I don't know how the 308 would have steered with that load.
    By the caravan most likely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    It would be possible, even if uncomfortable and in low gears for much of the time.
    I wouldn't try it with an AL4 or AM6 box. 350kgs might be okay?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    It would be possible, even if uncomfortable and in low gears for much of the time. I pulled as much and more years ago in a diesel Land Rover (46 kW/140 Nm) with only a fraction of the power and torque available from current PSA diesels.

    I don't know how the 308 would have steered with that load.
    The Landi has a chassis, and anyway a lot of flat road power isn't needed to get it rolling. Ask that dude who tows trains around with his teeth.

    The 308 don't have nothin' asunder so it'll probably be like those Centuras from the 70s, some folks may remember them. Pressed from a facsimile of metal substance thinner than cooking foil. Hook them up to a van and all four doors would fly open above 60k/hr.
    Nothing like the excellent 308 but how did I get here with Centuras. Cripes I have to wonder at times.
    Last edited by shanadoo; 14th October 2017 at 12:25 PM. Reason: excessive info

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    Post going on a bit. but personally I still regard dealers as stealers in regard to labor, parts cost and sometimes quality of workmanship and duty of care. Their overheads are enormous.
    But in our 308 regard, I would say someone in the workshop slipped up, intentionally or otherwise who knows. There should be enough workshop checks on every job, but even with that, there's many reasons why this sort of thing happens. It may have even accidentally slipped through without being touched at all on one occasion. Believe it, this happens all to frequently. Especially concerning women owner/drivers.
    However, whether your invoices say work done as per service sheet and includes a parts list , or it simply says carried out [insert mileage] service, why would you dispute either. It's been in the dealers workshop right?, and they know what they're doing, right?.
    The brand of vehicle, model, engine type or size have no correlation to workshop stuff ups, dealer based or not. And dealers do not intentionally make mistakes, it just seems that way because of their large customer base whereas even one slip up will likely end up on YouTube.
    But dealers can get away with it due to said large customer base, whereas in a small shop they rely on doing good work with no stuff ups to stay in business, otherwise the vehicle owner returns with his football mates.
    I remember several customers over the past millennia who stood in the office and complained loud and aggressively about cost when certain filters were changed prematurely, said vehicle not yet being at the required mileage stated in the service schedule. Takes all kinds.

    Our choice, to go elsewhere and give someone else a bit of work. At least with a private shop our different vehicles can get serviced at the same place. Funny how wheels turn, one mans' loss etc.
    Last edited by shanadoo; 14th October 2017 at 12:22 PM.

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    Default A warning about Stealers shonky servicing

    Quote Originally Posted by shanadoo View Post
    Its a diesel as per my abbreviation calling it a 308D. However I fail to see what the hell difference the Brand, Mileage or year of manufacture has do do with it. Bad servicing is bad servicing end of story.
    Well because Iím wondering how many filters it should of had by now pretty basic question but I guess your narrative or obvious hate for dealers has little to do with facts I find it very hard to believe letís just say because you canít give detail Iíll assume itís a rhh diesel so that means by 60k at least 3 different times 3 mechanics have conspired to steal your fuel filter BULLSHIT .
    I am very sorry that the world is against you .


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    Last edited by dmccurtayne; 13th October 2017 at 07:20 PM.

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    I can say I'm extremely happy with the (non Peugeot) Dealer that did our service last Tuesday.

    -Loan car provided
    -Car washed inside and out
    - DSG firmware upgrade installed
    - Tyres Rotated
    - Air filter replaced
    - Oil and filter changed
    - remote batteries checked and replacedx2
    Car delivered back on time

    $250 all up as per capped service

    The DSG firmware upgrade has made a big difference to low speed reversing/ maneuvering smoothness.

    For that kind of service I'll support them.
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