Is having different tires on the front and rear less safe ?!
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Thread: Is having different tires on the front and rear less safe ?!

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Is having different tires on the front and rear less safe ?!

    A tire fitter is telling me it is safer to have the same tires front and rear ?

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    Is there any truth in this ?!

  2. #2
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    Yes, it reduces the chance of unpredictable handling.

    When I lived in NZ, I remember being told that if was only replacing two tyres, they were required to fit the new ones to the rear.
    The reasoning behind this was not totally clear.

    On my 206 road tyres, I've got one tyre that doesn't quite match (same brand, slightly newer tread model and pattern). If I put it on the front, the car pulls to that side. If I put it on the rear, it's less noticeable.

    As long as the tyres match side to side, I would suggest it won't be too bad, but always better to have matching unless you've got a specific result in mind.
    206 GTi 180 - Cat Cams, Remapped Group N ECU, AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg fixed camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, Yokohama A050, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Powerflex Engine Mounts & Bushings, Setrab Oil cooler, Quaife diff, Velo seats.

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    You want the better tread on the rear. It's about lateral forces on the tyres during turning, and losing the grip on a wet road at the rear will be rather hairy in a front wheel drive car as it suddenly oversteers.

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    Guys thank you for the replies. I'm talking about same tyres on both rears and a different matching pair on the front

    How many cars don't have the same tyres front and rear, mine hasn't been like that since new 7 years ago
    Last edited by xlink_nz; 13th September 2017 at 05:49 PM.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    You want the better tread on the rear. It's about lateral forces on the tyres during turning, and losing the grip on a wet road at the rear will be rather hairy in a front wheel drive car as it suddenly oversteers.
    I'm of the opinion that the best tyres with the most tread should always be fitted to the front, regardless of whether the vehicle is front or rear wheel drive. It is on many occasions more important to steer than accelerate at dragster speed, whilst slowing from mach speed, your front tyres do most of the work.....
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    Same tyres on the same 'axle'. Not so important front to rear, but I can see the logic of 'best on the rear'.

    Mind you, modern ESP systems mostly negate any of this logic as all these systems control each wheel independently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by N5GTi6 View Post
    Same tyres on the same 'axle'. Not so important front to rear, but I can see the logic of 'best on the rear'.

    Mind you, modern ESP systems mostly negate any of this logic as all these systems control each wheel independently.

    Cheers

    Justin
    That is my point I cannot see why having different tyres front and rear but same tyres on same axle would make a difference at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIVEDOOR View Post
    You are entitled to you view Kim, but seems you are in the minority.
    yep, another oppressed minority, but we don't care because we're RIGHT!
    put your best tyres on the front, they do most of the braking,
    all the steering, and of course on FWD, all the driving.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    ^ And what happens when you go around a corner a bit too fast in the wet ? The front will hang on, and the ones at the rear which don't have as much grip will let go. Then you go over the side.

    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    You want the better tread on the rear. It's about lateral forces on the tyres during turning, and losing the grip on a wet road at the rear will be rather hairy in a front wheel drive car as it suddenly oversteers.
    Indeed. I almost killed myself in a Mini Minor on a slightly wet road at age 19, due to this.

    Having different tyres on front and rear is ok if you have the better gripping...or perhaps wider.....tyres on the rear.

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    Kim drives on a dirt speedway, I suspect. A brand new moderate width and profile tyre loses half of its lateral coefficient of friction when water depth approaches 1mm. That's according to my engineering textbooks, where there are pages of cornering/tyre calculations. I'd rather have understeer than massive rear end slide in the wet.

    When young and risk-prone I enjoyed planned drifting around bush dirt road corners in the dry. I don't want it forced on me on a wet street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xlink_nz View Post
    A tire fitter is telling me it is safer to have the same tires front and rear ?

    Is there any truth in this ?!
    Yes.
    And he sells more tyres!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    ^ And what happens when you go around a corner a bit too fast in the wet ?

    [...]

    You counter steer.

    Now you tell me what happens when you go for the brakes and remember your good tyres are on the rear whilst skidding at speed past the intersection?

    Brown wave?

    The fact you survived being young and clueless doesn't lend credibility to the theory.

    Even ABS can't get you what you don't have, I don't care what the majority says.

    All said, I really don't understand why people don't buy a full set of tyres when they need tyres.

    What I find even funnier, is that most people would spend inordinate amounts of money on just about anything, stereo, bluetooth this, that or the other, paint protection, GPS (why would you need to go somewhere when you don't even know where it is?!), cameras, chip removal, and so on, but scrimp on brakes and tyres. Even insurance! I take having good tyres and brakes as cheap insurance.

    Little wonder my tyres cost almost as much as the car (that is a full set of five, yes).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 13th September 2017 at 09:45 PM.
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    I have now done a couple of rallies in my stock 205 Si with rally tyres on the front and Michelin Energy XM2 on the rear. Sounds horrible but actually works very well, nice controllable oversteer, but wouldn't recommend it to a newcomer or for use on a fast car. 14 inch Rally tyres won't fit on the rear without carving away a lot of plastic.

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    I bought a 205 GTi from someone once that had tyres worn down to the wire. He couldn't afford new ones so went and bought a new Golf GTi on finance instead. He also owed 8k in parking fines, wonder what he is doing these days?


    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    You counter steer.

    Now you tell me what happens when you go for the brakes and remember your good tyres are on the rear whilst skidding at speed past the intersection?

    Brown wave?

    The fact you survived being young and clueless doesn't lend credibility to the theory.

    Even ABS can't get you what you don't have, I don't care what the majority says.

    All said, I really don't understand why people don't buy a full set of tyres when they need tyres.

    What I find even funnier, is that most people would spend inordinate amounts of money on just about anything, stereo, bluetooth this, that or the other, paint protection, GPS (why would you need to go somewhere when you don't even know where it is?!), cameras, chip removal, and so on, but scrimp on brakes and tyres. Even insurance! I take having good tyres and brakes as cheap insurance.

    Little wonder my tyres cost almost as much as the car (that is a full set of five, yes).

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    Fitting a set of non-matching tyres on a stock road car driven on public roads will always be a compromise.

    It then becomes a choice of what sort of compromise one is willing to accept.

    Fitting new tyres on the front axle will improve front-end grip, reduce braking distances in the wet and reduce the risk of aquaplaning at the front (understeer).

    Fitting new tyres on the rear axle will improve rear-end grip, enhance stability when braking and cornering, and reduce the risk of aquaplaning at the rear (oversteer).

    Most drivers can manage driving on worn front tyres and is relatively easy to take that into account when driving.

    The current mode of thought is that losing control of the rear end and spinning the car is not acceptable, particularly when it is due to aquaplaning of the rear tyres.

    As Martin Brundle said, it doesn’t matter how great your talent or car is - when your tyres start aquaplaning, you’re a passenger.

    In a worst case scenario, you have to think about dealing with the likelihood and consequences of a frontal collision (understeer) or side collision (oversteer).

    On balance, the latter is seen as the bigger danger, so therein lies the recommendation.

    But again, one can choose what compromise suits one's own needs.

    If circumstances permit, it is always preferable to buy a set of matching tyres.

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    Perhaps it doesn't matter , provided it's a properly though through choice

    The other element is predictability - some tyres let go at random or give little warning when they do. Personally, I would far rather have this happen at the rear as I can generally deal with it or even provoke it if I need to. The random loss of contact at the front gives one rather less choice about the softest part of the scenery.

    Would far rather have my steered wheels still hanging on, also those that do the bulk of the braking, this way I have at least some choice about the accident.

    Andrew



    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_vert View Post
    Fitting a set of non-matching tyres on a stock road car driven on public roads will always be a compromise.

    It then becomes a choice of what sort of compromise one is willing to accept.

    Fitting new tyres on the front axle will improve front-end grip, reduce braking distances in the wet and reduce the risk of aquaplaning at the front (understeer).

    Fitting new tyres on the rear axle will improve rear-end grip, enhance stability when braking and cornering, and reduce the risk of aquaplaning at the rear (oversteer).

    Most drivers can manage driving on worn front tyres and is relatively easy to take that into account when driving.

    The current mode of thought is that losing control of the rear end and spinning the car is not acceptable, particularly when it is due to aquaplaning of the rear tyres.

    As Martin Brundle said, it doesn’t matter how great your talent or car is - when your tyres start aquaplaning, you’re a passenger.

    In a worst case scenario, you have to think about dealing with the likelihood and consequences of a frontal collision (understeer) or side collision (oversteer).

    On balance, the latter is seen as the bigger danger, so therein lies the recommendation.

    But again, one can choose what compromise suits one's own needs.

    If circumstances permit, it is always preferable to buy a set of matching tyres.
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    This is what continental say: red my emphasis

    "We recommend that the same tires are fitted on all wheel positions of your vehicle. If however due to availability or economical considerations mixing is necessary, than it is permissible to mix brands and tread patterns as long as the same tread patterns and brands are fitted across the same axle. It may also be possible to mix load index and speed symbol as long as the load index and speed symbols are above the minimum vehicle manufactures recommendations (extra load vs. standard load). In such cases the higher rated tires should be fitted on the rear axle."

    https://www.continental-tires.com/ca...irelexikon-3-4

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    Australian roadworthy regulations state that tyres for a given axle must be of the same type of construction (e.g. bias-ply or radial), size (e.g. 195/65 R15) and have a speed symbol and load index no less than what it is required for the vehicle.

    As long as the above conditions are met, you can fit any tyre you desire, irrespective of brand, model or tread pattern.

    In fact, you can fit four completely different tyres if you wish, and the vehicle will still be deemed roadworthy (provided they have a tread depth of 1.5 mm or higher).

    However, the fitment of non-matching tyres is not ideal for reasons already explained in this thread.

    Best practice is always to fit a matching set of tyres.

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    On a FWD car, front tyres (especially their shoulders) tend to wear quicker than rears (roundabouts exacerbate this). If you stick meticulously to always having the most worn tyres on the front (as they have done in rotating ours), you end up where we are now - fronts nearly worn out (20+k) and rears with quite a bit of tread left. Much prefer to progressively rotate fronts to rear when worn to try to keep wear uniform. On the other hand, the tyre retailer I am dealing with wants to fit 2 tyres each time (extra wheel alignments, new tyres with half worn ones etc)

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    It's one thing to correct a sliding rear end on a dirt road, or even on a paved one. A hydroplaning tail is another thing altogether. As the man said, you are a passenger and you had better not have any obstacle nearby.

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    in over 50 years of driving, and riding, I have never knowingly experienced
    rear wheels aquaplaning. but I have sure experienced it with front wheels, car and bikes.
    scary as. aquaplaning has become the one thing that really spooks me on the road.
    another reason why my best, ie least worn, tyres will always be on the front.
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    In my 50+ years of driving I've had Beano's experience on a wet sealed road. It happens so quickly and unexpectedly. You can't correct the slide over water. Luckily the road was empty and there were no trees and poles..

    I have never had the front aquaplane.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    I think there must be people amongst us who subscribe to the theory that a car on cruise control will accelerate when it aquaplanes. That kind of pernicious and perverse thinking leads to all sorts of other amazing ideas.......
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    I agree with all the points raised (except Kim's new conspiracy theory), hence why I stayed out of them. It's easy to discuss the possibilities on paper, but how do you realistically optimise for two opposing and dangerous outcomes?

    I rotate my tyres to maintain as equal as possible tread depth across the car. When they are pushing the end of their life, I replace all 4. If I didn't manage to get that perfect and need to replace 2, but 4 are getting close, I still replace all 4.

    It's a problem of budgeting and "waste" in my mind. I'd rather be safe than save $300, or even $800. (if your tyres are more than $400 a corner, we shouldn't be having this discussion, you need to make better choices that fit your income)
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    206 GTi 180 - Cat Cams, Remapped Group N ECU, AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg fixed camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, Yokohama A050, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Powerflex Engine Mounts & Bushings, Setrab Oil cooler, Quaife diff, Velo seats.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:45.6
    Phillip Island - 1:58.4
    Nürburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

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