E10 as a 95 substitute
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Thread: E10 as a 95 substitute

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default E10 as a 95 substitute

    My 1.6 THP engine needs 95 RON as a minimum and so when I got our new car recently, I filled up with United's 95 green handle pump.
    It wasn't till I got home that I checked the details on the docket because it seems to be very cheap. It simply stated E10 rather than 95.
    Apparently United's 95 (green handle) is an alternative to their yellow handle 95 ......very confusing for me at least, seeing they claim both as 95 RON.
    The car won't be doing any hard work eg speed or towing.
    Is E10 therefore acceptable in a DI engine seeing it has the anti knock number.


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    Your fuel consumption will worsen. Alcohol doesn't release as much energy as petrol

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Your fuel consumption will worsen. Alcohol doesn't release as much energy as petrol
    It doesn't release it because it doesn't contain it.
    It's supposed to be cheaper too, so no net loss. Whether that is borne out in practice is not something I've bothered to check.
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    Apparently;

    Your desexed cat will mysteriously give birth to puppies
    All planets will collide
    Your dog will shit fairy floss
    And the engine will fall out of your car.

    Sometimes all four will happen simultaneously according to internet mythologists.

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    Availability of petrol grades on our market:

    A) Regular Unleaded (minimum 91 RON, minimum 81 MON)

    B) Regular Unleaded E10 (varies between 93-95 RON, varies between 81-83 MON)

    C) Premium Unleaded (minimum 95 RON, minimum 85 MON)

    D) Premium Unleaded E10 (varies between 97-100 RON, varies between 85-87 MON)


    Most European petrol engines are specifically designed to run on C. If compatible with ethanol, D may also be used. Using A or B in such engines is not recommended.

    Premium unleaded in Australia is legally defined as having a minimum RON of 95 and a minimum MON of 85, which is the same as Europe. Therefore, European vehicle manufacturers expect their engines to be run on such fuel.

    Hence, you will notice that United Petroleum deliberately do not use the word 'premium' in the marketing of their product 'Unleaded E10', even though it claims to have a RON of 95 (which may be true, but it won't have a MON of 85).

    Shell (?) and United used to sell D at one point in time, but was discontinued.
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    Default E10 as a 95 substitute

    I'm more concerned about the ethanol component as it relates to high pressure direct injection and its long term compatibility.
    It's certainly substantially cheaper. Just so long as it's not nastier too.
    Whether the famed intake valve fouling is affected also.

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    Intake valve fouling comes from oil mist, courtesy of the turbocharger and the crankcase. Direct injected fuel doesn't wash it away.

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    Default E10 as a 95 substitute

    Some e fuels don't lubricate as well as standard fuel so high pressure pumps can be affected that's why psa have different pumps etc for Brazil etc but I wouldn't worry all that much the thp will most certainly let you know if it pinks.



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    I think you will find the handbook will tell you it's tolerant of 10% ethanol.

    If the overall octane rating is lower than what the car needs (95+ offhand), go for a different fuel.

    It's often stated that various tests concluded 10% ethanol gives little more than 95% of the mileage of an comparable ULP. No doubt the actual mileage difference you experience if you tested it may be a bit different, nonetheless, work on the basis that the E10 needs to be no more than 95% of the equivalent petrol for the cost to be the same. This is why E10 can sometimes cost you more.

    It's also worth remembering one of the legacies of the previous incarnation of the current NSW govt is a mandated requirement for fuel sales to be include 6% ethanol.

    From the Executive summary of the 2015 IPART report (128 pages) here:
    https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/s...-_may_2015.pdf

    Further, the current price of E10 does not represent value for money. Ethanol
    contains 31.6% less energy per litre than petrol and, on average, using E10
    increases fuel consumption by about 3%. To make E10 competitive, it needs to be
    about 3% cheaper than RULP. The average price difference of 2.2 cpl (April to
    June 2014) means E10 is only about 1.5% cheaper than RULP
    It mostly discusses meeting the 6% ethanol mandate if you feel like digging into excess detail.

    Butanol would be a better substitute as it has a substantially better calorific value, but it is unfortunately nowhere as easy to make as ethanol.
    Last edited by David S; 24th August 2017 at 09:41 PM.
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    e10 will required a fuel system clean every 3-6 months depending on how you drive.
    Blows away any savings you make in cheap fuel
    Go BP Ultimate, more Km's per tank

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaman View Post
    I'm more concerned about the ethanol component as it relates to high pressure direct injection and its long term compatibility.
    It's certainly substantially cheaper. Just so long as it's not nastier too.
    Whether the famed intake valve fouling is affected also.
    It would appear that fuel, irrespective of grade or ethanol content, must be properly treated with effective additives to provide reliable service.

    I would expect that all petrol blends sold in this country have been treated with additives, though I can't objectively vouch for their effectiveness in terms of deposits re: injector nozzle, inlet valve, combustion chamber, etc.

    My personal view is that, though I'm not fundamentally against ethanol blended petrol, the use of ethanol-free 95 or 98 petrol poses the least amount of questions regarding their suitability for European cars.

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    UFO
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    I will never put E10 in our C4 or C5



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    Meanwhile, I'm switching over to E85 in my track 205.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    Ah, well, adapting an engine to run on E85 with all the proper modifications is one thing (sounds like an interesting project).

    Using regular unleaded E10 on a stock standard 1.6 THP daily driver is quite another.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Indeed - fuel pumps, injectors, fuel lines etc.

    '92 205 Mi16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_vert View Post
    Ah, well, adapting an engine to run on E85 with all the proper modifications is one thing (sounds like an interesting project).

    Using regular unleaded E10 on a stock standard 1.6 THP daily driver is quite another.
    Unless, perhaps, the daily driver is a retired old f..t who thinks 100kph is uneconomic and positively reckless


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    Ah!
    Finally found it - E10 meeting 95RON is OK



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    As the "majors" in my area all seem to sell E10 as a 91RON fuel (it only manages to get to 94 it would seem) I'm generally suspicious of any independents selling E10 as 95RON.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    As the "majors" in my area all seem to sell E10 as a 91RON fuel (it only manages to get to 94 it would seem) I'm generally suspicious of any independents selling E10 as 95RON.
    It seems United 95 green handle is OK.


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    Facts, lies and statistics.......................

    Well, all I can say is, when I had the Scenic Rx-4, the majority of fuel fills were with an E10 product.

    In the time I owned the car, from Sept2005, up until Dec2016, the fuel economy never varied much and I didn't notice a marked variance from the time I purchased the car until I traded it. Fuel usage and running remained fairly constant and the oil condition between changes was not noted to be worse over time.

    Consumption averaged 8.7L/100km even with a change to a premium or ultimate Unleaded fuel.

    There was never a fuel leak, a fuel smell from deterioration of fuel lines ETC so I call BS

    Sure, on paper there is a difference but IMHO, in real world usage, just like the 'claimed' economy figures for any vehicle, you'll never replicate the claims.
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    No detectable drop in economy using the fill to fill calculations....no pre-ignition.....same power .....smooth as......cheaper than 91.....why not more popular?.
    Prejudice?.


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    My testing on my 206GTI came out a little differently.

    I used around 10% more e10 than either 91 or 98.
    e10 and 91 drove the same.
    On 98 there was a slight advantage when coming back on the throttle after backing off - a more instant response. Presumably the knock sensor was retarding things with the other fuels.

    I don't use the e10 because it costs more per km and gives me less range on a tank.
    I don't use the 98 because the difference is minimal.
    There don't seem to be any ill effects to running on 91 - my GTI is at 285,000 and going as good as ever.

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    I drive mine for economy and average just under the official Ďcombinedí figure of 5.8L/100 which is exactly what I was getting on 95 PULP.


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    Can I throw a (small) Spainyard in the Works??

    I'm interested in the *petrol debate* .... but I drive a C5 HDi.

    So, as applicable to Citroen/ Peugeot diesels:

    The other day, on the web, searching for cheap diesel, I noted some outlets have Diesel and some, apparently, have Premium Diesel (although, from memory, I haven't seen this displayed on pumps). Any comments?

    Then .... BioDiesel, albeit I don't think I've seen any on sale in my neck of the woods.

    I think I have noticed that after filling up on "cheap" diesel that the C5 runs a little rougher for a time, then settles down.

    Your thoughts on grades of diesel??
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    sold ..... D Special 1974 ... to fellow Tassie AFer.
    sold ..... Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    sold .....GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    sold .... 1986 2CV6

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23 1973 Pallas
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

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