504 Twin Solex hard starting when warm.
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Thread: 504 Twin Solex hard starting when warm.

  1. #1
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    Default 504 Twin Solex hard starting when warm.

    The 77 504 sedan is running very well since the twin solex carbbie carb rebuild. I've noticed that it will start instantly from cold, but once the engine is fully warm. She gets to be very hard to fire off.

    Me thinks it is flooding while sitting... I still have one original needle float valve in it.

    Are these known to leak off some? Maybe the are adjusted too rich?

    I squirreled around with the helper carb, can't find any info on adjusting this one. All the books say just don't do it, too late now.......

    Adam.

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    leregulage,
    My experience with the "tandem" Solex is get rid of it and fit a Weber [ex Pinto].
    But this is not what you want to hear.
    The single throat Solex 34 pbic [404] was prone to be troublesome when hot started. The solution was to lower the float level by fitting an extra thin washer under the float valve. This was to overcome the percolation of the fuel flooding via the air bleed or emulsion tube in the carb. throat.
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 2nd March 2017 at 02:39 PM. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    I'll give that a try. I had to disable the idle cut off solenoids(they shot sparks out of the back!). I wonder if it is flooding from those ports as wel? We never had any issue with the carby on the 403..... These twin solex's are a royal pain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    leregulage,
    My experience with the "tandem" Solex is get rid of it and fit a Weber [ex Pinto].
    But this is not what you want to hear.
    The single throat Solex 34 pbic [404] was prone to be troublesome when hot started. The solution was to lower the float level by fitting an extra thin washer under the float valve. This was to overcome the percolation of the fuel flooding via the air bleed or emulsion tube in the carb. throat.

  4. #4
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    Also does anybody know if Vw beetle idle cut off solenoids fit the dual solex carbs?

  5. #5
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    I added a wee washer to the carbbies. I thought it was better, but was wrong it seems. I found out what is going on. When it gets hot, and is sitting afterwards. I hear a "tick tick" from the carb throats. The accel pump squirters are slowly trickling gas until cool.... They are perfectly adjusted according to a Aussie manual...

    The sound must be those little balls .

    I'm stumped, anybody feel free to chime in here.

    Adam.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    The twin Solex setup was only available in Australia for a relatively short time which probably explains the lack of practical advice.

    Also, I reckon that most people swapped over to the earlier inlet manifold and installed either a twin throat Solex or Weber to circumvent the intricacies of the twin carb arrangement.

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    I've resuscitated a Solex float valve in the past by removing it, turning it upside down & dripping in a small amount of 'brasso' metal polish then grinding the needle against its stop. Repeat a few times. Needless to say rinse away all the metal polish after!
    The other thing is don't discount fuel vapourisation - some post or article I read explained why that phenomenon is worse with modern fuel - but can't remember why :-/


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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    If you do eventually go down the path of fitting a Weber, it can be a bit of a fiddle getting the correct jets fitted. It all depends on which car you get one from (and I presume you will ger a secondhand one).
    Here, many people used Webers from the Ford Falcon (in the USA I believe they were called Grenadas), but an early one is the one to go for. However I fitted on once and it was a pain. Although I re-jetted it, the acceleration was non-linear. And I had to make a spindle extension.

    A Weber from a 2 litre Ford Cortina went better.

    But a Renault Fuego carby was perfect. It fitted straight on, minimal fiddling to fit, no re-jetting needed, more power than the Solex and better fuel economy. Not sure what they were named in the States.

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    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    They were always that way. However here are a few checks for you to perform to solve the issue.
    My usual test is to check voltages cranking cold and hot.
    Next is to check spark intensity at the plug lead. It should be blue and jump at least 10mm. If it doesn't do that I go and check supply volts and points condition. Usually my decision is to fit an ACCU Spark replacement kit.
    The Pugs always boiled fuel after stopping and were always hard to start hot back then. Including the Ti's. Weak ignition is almost always the reason. Fuel can dribble and drop but will always ignite with a fat spark and air.
    I can assist solving for you, via this forum if you want to.

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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    The Fuegos the USA got were Bosch injected. Those twin carb 504s were a handful when new, very hard to get running correctly, especially the emission controlled ones in Canada and the USA. Back in the day, the dealers in Canada used to rejet them to make them run better.
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    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    I really understand why it only has 48K miles!

    Dang thing sat due to things like this... It still has the points setup. I was going to go with a electronic conversion. All the other ignition stuff is new. The car came new with idle cut off solenoids. Mine shot a shower of sparks out all over the engine one day.

    I wonder if I get some new VW solenoids, if that would help the problem. Although it is comming out of the accel pump squirters when hot.

    I find it something that the solex on the 203/403 engine never, ever gave me any issue..

    The fuel boils so quickly now because up to 10% alcohol is added to it..... Plus no return line.

    Hmm, what if I tapped in a wee return line? Anyone ever done it?

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    Demmanu has a twin barrel solex for sale right now elsewhere on this forum!


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  13. #13
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    `I have come upon the idea of fitting a return line, with a low psi bypass regulator. So no more extra fuel down le carb bores.

    Short of that, another carb setup, or putting in a diesel--thats about it.

    Adam.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    If all else fails, I may be able to arrange getting an intake manifold from a wrecker in another city and then post it to you.
    I would not want any money for doing this (apart from the cost of manifold and postage), but if the manifold is your only obstacle, I don't mind doing it. I'm sure postage wouldn't be that much.

    I'm sure you could get a Weber carby from someone locally, but as I said, a Renault Fuego is the most hassle-free arrangement.

    Alternatively, I wonder if you could chop your manifold below where the two carbies go on, and get someone to aluminium-weld the top of a Ford Grenada manifold onto that ? (Remember I mentioned that the Falcon over here was the Grenada there ?)
    The Grenada Weber would have no probs fitting then !

    And the Ford Cortina ( that's what it was called here.....what was it there ?) was better....simpler carby).

    I've never "cut and shut" a manifold, and wonder how feasible it is. Anyone know ???
    Last edited by Beano; 14th March 2017 at 04:00 PM.

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    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    Seems the grenadas here got either holleys, or carter carbs. I'm going to check my pump psi, then go from there.

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    Fellow Frogger! DaveB's Avatar
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    Default Solex 203 experience

    Went thru hell and high water getting my 203 correct.

    short story: Solex 32 on 203 motor hard to start
    symptoms: fuel leaking from butterfly and down throat after shutdown
    diagnosis: happened after new fuel pump & with just a few seconds running (not hot engine but initially i thought it was)
    cause: leaking emulsifier tube seal in carby throat AND now-correct fuel pressure overwhelming needle and seat (2 separate problems)
    cure: dismantle & clean carby, install kit with new needle & seat AND painted with gasket sealant where emulsifier tube plugs into carb throat crosspiece (the join is below the level of the carby bowl so it leaks down most of the bowl contents)
    incidental: hard starting due to initial flooding x2 AND once that has evaporated away, hard starting due to empty float bowl. So both ends of the stick were pointy ...

    Final outcome, starts first time every time, unless its been sitting for a couple of weeks in a hot garage.



    Of course, your experience & carby may be different.
    PS it has a 1-2-3 distributor
    Last edited by DaveB; 16th March 2017 at 12:20 PM.

  17. #17
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    At normal temp, I was putting out 3.2 psi....

    It is just a bunch of trial and error with shimming the pump. I have it down to 1.9 psi, the last .9 is a royal pain to get!


    The Haynes book says a MAX of 1 psi at about 2-4K rpm. Is that right for twin carbs?


    Also pressure aside, my flooding is coming from, or around the accel pump squirters. Maybe the little gasket under them was no good?


    Anyone ever seen this happen?


    Adam.

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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    Check the coil. If it's mounted on the area behind the rad, try mounting it remotely.
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    Fellow Frogger! DaveB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leregulage View Post
    Also pressure aside, my flooding is coming from, or around the accel pump squirters. Maybe the little gasket under them was no good? Anyone ever seen this happen?
    Adam.
    Yes, mine looked like that.
    Fuel was dripping out the butterfly shaft, but looked like an accelerator pump seal leak, as the seal is just above the shaft.
    When the throttle is closed, leaking fuel pools on the butterfly and leaks out the shaft bush.
    Impossible to see exactly where the carburetor is leaking from when it is mounted on the engine.

    In the end I mounted the carb. on a wooden bar that I could position across the engine bay with the fuel line connected, and observed the leak source closely while I pressurised the float bowl.
    Also used washers to lower the float bowl level & increase the pressure on the needle and seat when it was closed, otherwise, my solutions were as above in previous post.

    Two leaks, as noted in previous post. The big fix was to seal the the emulsifier post where it mounts in the carb body. Being below the needle and seat level, if it is not fuel-tight, it must leak down into the motor untill the bowl level drops to the base of the post leak.
    Took ages to track down.
    I suggest you look at the base of the emulsifier post with fuel in the bowl.

    Dave (working on carb pugs since 1981)

    PS I dont think fuel pressure is your problem; It is just exposing existing leaks.
    My 203 (with 203 motor and carb.) is running a Lambert Brothers 203-505 mechanical fuel pump with manual primer, I rotated the top to better align the fuel lines.

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    Last edited by DaveB; 18th March 2017 at 11:35 AM.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    leregulage,
    How did you go about disabling the idle cut off solenoid? Simply removing the wire will result in the idle jet being inoperative.
    I think you will need to replace the solenoid with a normal idle jet and holder.

  21. #21
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    I already battled with the coil last month. I made up a bracket, so it was upright. It sits on the fender. Everything ignition wise is new, and greatly improved.. I need to get electronic ignition next.

    As for the solenoids, the jet comes out the end. I just snipped the tip of the little rod. Had no choice, they were shooting sparks out...


    I got the pressure down to 2 psi at 4k rpm. Its either that, or 0 psi.

    Anyway, I may have figured out the over fueling issue. It wasn't anything to do with the pressure. The main carbbie has those F-ing heater lines on the base. I took them off, and presto, not one drip from the accel pumps.


    Why I didn't think of that in the first place I will never know!


    Next is the big manifold coolant hose to be blocked off, and some heat wrap for the fuel line.


    Already feels 20 degrees cooler!


    On a side note just to spite me, some crap jammed the helper carb float jet........


    Adam.

  22. #22
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    I put in a Hot Spark electronic ignition today. The car seems a bit more perky.


    I have yet to either take out, or get a 72C thermostat.


    Either way, once the rad fan kicks on. Then the car gets shut off-for 5 minutes or more with the hood shut. Still no start. Checked the plugs, they look clean, and dry... Which doesn't make much sense.....


    Like clock work! The heat soak is the problem. Seems with the coolant gently warm, it still does the same thing.


    Would be almost undrivable if it wasn't 33F out right now. Wait till it gets stuck in traffic on a 95' day.


    Other than the starting, the car runs, rides, drives, just perfect.


    So I'm going to run alcohol free gas, get the right thermostat, tickle a leprechaun--and then I'm outta ideas.....


    Looks like it has been an issue with it for a very long time.


    Can't be the only one like this?


    Adam.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Yours isn't the only one that's had this problem but, these days, there are few 504s around (at least in Australia) and memories are fading a bit.

    I had a 504 (single carb, twin throat) about 25 years ago that had much the same symptoms but, unfortunately, I can't remember how I fixed it.

  24. #24
    Member leregulage's Avatar
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    With some tips and tricks from the US puggie group. I'm going to flush the cooling system. Even got a laser thermometer today to check around.

    Will report back with the findings.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Those twin carbies were never very popular here, and your problems exemplify why this was so. Most people changed them and fitted single carby, twin-throat Webers.

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