504 with 604 front suspension
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Default 504 with 604 front suspension

    My car now rolls forward with the 604 front struts.

    A few things that i am trying to understand. Some of this has been answered in previous posts but I am not totally understanding. So........

    Do 604 front and rear sway bars just bolt on to the 504? the 604 front seems to be wider?

    What are the bars that the sway bar attaches to? I ask as I am wondering if the ones I have are 504 or 604. A 604 sway bar does not fit so i assume that they are 504 ones. hope this makes sense.

    On top of the struts there is that plate, the rectangular one? Should that be in line with the car, ie front to back? because both of mine are diagonal to the line of the car? Is this wrong?

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    A lot of vauge questions I know

    thanks

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Vauge or vague?

    The plate is merely there to stop the strut shaft coming out if the rubber fails totally... it's always been longitudinal in relation to the car any time I've seen it, but it really doesn't matter if everything else is in the right place.

    The sway bar mounts to the lower control arms, and the 604 one won't fit because it's made for a car with a wider track... the track is wider because the lower control arms are longer... so it seems you have 504 lower control arms. You can check by comparing to your originals... measure their length... about 290mm ball joint centre to bush centre...

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    on the top of the strut there is a location hole where the 3 bolt holes are

    this hole should be towards the centre on the car closest to the engine bay

    the 604 lower arms are needed for the 604 sway bar

    now if the 604 struts are standard struts and haven't been lowered the car will be sitting very high at the front

    if they are lowered then you don't have any worries but you will need to have 504 lower arms on them to keep the camber close to normal otherwise you are going to be running some fairly heavy negative camber

    i'm actually in the hunt at the moment for some offset bushes which i have heard are made for various cars so if i can get the right size for the pugs i'll let you know

    that way you can run lower springs without too much trouble
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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    Fellow Frogger! yawood's Avatar
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    I might be in the market for some 604 struts to put in my 505 to give it better ground clearance for the outback. Anyone know what they're selling for?
    Bruce

    Currently owned:
    1988 505 GTi S2 Familial
    1999 E46 BMW 328Ci, 2002 Falcon AUIII Ute
    Previously owned:
    ('78-'81) 1970 504 (with the beautiful French seats)
    ('81-'89) 1977 504 (took the family on postings to Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Canberra)
    Brother owned:
    203,403,404,504 (each when they were current vehicles)

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawood
    I might be in the market for some 604 struts to put in my 505 to give it better ground clearance for the outback. Anyone know what they're selling for?

    just put the 604 springs in or place spacers on the top of the strut with longer bolts

    be warned though, the higher you go the more positive camber you will get

    from memory every inch you go you will get around a degree of camber

    when i first put a set of standard 604 struts in a 504 to see what it was like years ago i had bucket loads of positive camber and that was with 604 lower arms (which are the same as 505)

    if you want to raise it just grab some 604 springs from someone bearing in mind they are fairly long and a 604 has more weight over the front end than a manual 505

    they are quite easy to put in and you don't even have to take the struts completely out of the car or use a spring compressor if you do the job in the car
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    just put the 604 springs in or place spacers on the top of the strut with longer bolts

    be warned though, the higher you go the more positive camber you will get

    from memory every inch you go you will get around a degree of camber

    when i first put a set of standard 604 struts in a 504 to see what it was like years ago i had bucket loads of positive camber and that was with 604 lower arms (which are the same as 505)

    if you want to raise it just grab some 604 springs from someone bearing in mind they are fairly long and a 604 has more weight over the front end than a manual 505

    they are quite easy to put in and you don't even have to take the struts completely out of the car or use a spring compressor if you do the job in the car
    I cannot spell, one of those things

    I assume that i have 504 control arms as the 604 sway bar is far too wide. I have no knowlege of camber or such things, but i do know that the car is out of allignment by a fair margin.

    The hole, its the size of the bolt holes but it has no thread?

    For some reason the plates that i spoke of on the front struts have come loose, i have no idea why??????????? How do i tightnen them up? A spanner and a flat screwdriver? Can I screm the bolt down too far or something like that?

    ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH suspension!!!!!!!!!! Front or back I am sure that it is trying to send me gray faster than I allready am

    I actually had a look at the 504 sway bar that i have currently on the car. It has a kink in it, possibly from when the car got smacked into something hard by a previous owner. I doubt that I could have done that much damage

    Does this bend pose any problems? Loss of harmony? Will the car behave oddly. I will source a replacement but in the meantime hopefully nothing else goes wrong.

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! yawood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    just put the 604 springs in or place spacers on the top of the strut with longer bolts...
    Thanks pugrambo
    Bruce

    Currently owned:
    1988 505 GTi S2 Familial
    1999 E46 BMW 328Ci, 2002 Falcon AUIII Ute
    Previously owned:
    ('78-'81) 1970 504 (with the beautiful French seats)
    ('81-'89) 1977 504 (took the family on postings to Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Canberra)
    Brother owned:
    203,403,404,504 (each when they were current vehicles)

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Any one know how to screw the strut down? The brace plate is rattling

    Still worried how it came loose in the first place

    shobbz
    Previous
    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    Any one know how to screw the strut down? The brace plate is rattling

    Still worried how it came loose in the first place

    shobbz

    i take it you are talking about the retangular plate you can see when you life the bonnet ?

    you need to hold the shock top and tighten the nut you can see there

    that should have been done already

    the 2 holes i was talking about are the ones that don't have threads in them and are usually located closer to one of the bolt holes

    these holes should be closest to the engine bay
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i take it you are talking about the retangular plate you can see when you life the bonnet ?

    you need to hold the shock top and tighten the nut you can see there

    that should have been done already

    the 2 holes i was talking about are the ones that don't have threads in them and are usually located closer to one of the bolt holes

    these holes should be closest to the engine bay
    I shall tighten the nut. By hold the shock u mean the metal shaft? How do i hold it? WIth a screw driver.

    Do i have to make sure that it does not turn? If it does is this a problem.

    I understand that it has to be immovable to tighten the nut, just worried that if i let it turn accidently that something will happen

    thanks

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts David Shearer's Avatar
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    Shobbz,

    Drop a 505 Gti sway bar in, my brother just did. Gives a stiffer ride as its a lot more thick.

    For under $500, my brother also completely replaced his front end on his 504 with 604 stuff. Brakes, discs, calipers, rebuilt 505 steering rack. Certailnly made a good difference in handling. Bloody pug just sticks to the road. Has some good neg camber too. Wish I had a digital camera to show you the before/after pics.

    good luck.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    I cannot spell, one of those things

    I assume that i have 504 control arms as the 604 sway bar is far too wide. I have no knowlege of camber or such things, but i do know that the car is out of allignment by a fair margin.

    The hole, its the size of the bolt holes but it has no thread?

    For some reason the plates that i spoke of on the front struts have come loose, i have no idea why??????????? How do i tightnen them up? A spanner and a flat screwdriver? Can I screm the bolt down too far or something like that?

    ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH suspension!!!!!!!!!! Front or back I am sure that it is trying to send me gray faster than I allready am

    I actually had a look at the 504 sway bar that i have currently on the car. It has a kink in it, possibly from when the car got smacked into something hard by a previous owner. I doubt that I could have done that much damage

    Does this bend pose any problems? Loss of harmony? Will the car behave oddly. I will source a replacement but in the meantime hopefully nothing else goes wrong.

    shobbz
    78 Fiat X1/9, Peugeot 406 ST, Peugeot 407 V6 SW

    Previous:

    05 Megane Turbo
    2x 89 405 Mi16
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    Peugeot, Francais pour "Putain qu'c'est vite"[/FONT]

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    I shall tighten the nut. By hold the shock u mean the metal shaft? How do i hold it? WIth a screw driver.

    Do i have to make sure that it does not turn? If it does is this a problem.

    I understand that it has to be immovable to tighten the nut, just worried that if i let it turn accidently that something will happen

    thanks

    shobbz

    if it has a slot then hold it with a screw driver

    ideally they should be done without weight on them from the spring but they can be done in the car

    try and not let the shock turn but if it does it's not a big worry

    i have pulled springs out of struts while they are in cars quite a few time and tightened up the shock in the car without any dramas

    i find it safer to replace sprins while a strut is in a car as i do not trust spring compressors at all

    you have more control by using the weight of the car to change them
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Shearer
    Shobbz,

    Drop a 505 Gti sway bar in, my brother just did. Gives a stiffer ride as its a lot more thick.

    For under $500, my brother also completely replaced his front end on his 504 with 604 stuff. Brakes, discs, calipers, rebuilt 505 steering rack. Certailnly made a good difference in handling. Bloody pug just sticks to the road. Has some good neg camber too. Wish I had a digital camera to show you the before/after pics.

    good luck.

    Dave
    David,

    Are do the sti's and GTI's share the same sway bar?

    Why the 505 rack over the 504? or was it that it was rebuilt?

    thanks

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts David Shearer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    David,

    Are do the sti's and GTI's share the same sway bar?

    Why the 505 rack over the 504? or was it that it was rebuilt?

    thanks

    shobbz
    Hi Shobbz,

    I'm not sure if they are the same, but I think the Sti is a more perfromance vehicle (engine wise), maybe its a bit thicker. The Gti is certainly thicker than the 504's. I think it only cost my brother $70 for a really good one too.

    Currently, there is a pretty crappy rack in his car, yep, its just because this one is re-built and it makes the wheels stick out that little bit further.

    cheers
    Dave
    78 Fiat X1/9, Peugeot 406 ST, Peugeot 407 V6 SW

    Previous:

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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Shearer
    Hi Shobbz,

    I'm not sure if they are the same, but I think the Sti is a more perfromance vehicle (engine wise), maybe its a bit thicker. The Gti is certainly thicker than the 504's. I think it only cost my brother $70 for a really good one too.

    Currently, there is a pretty crappy rack in his car, yep, its just because this one is re-built and it makes the wheels stick out that little bit further.

    cheers
    Dave
    Dave,

    thanks. I shall keep my eyes open for a sti or gti sway bar. I am putting a 604 one on the back after i file the notch for the rear compensator.

    Has anyone been able to track down new rear sway bar linkages? EAI in melbourne does not stock them? Anyone know where i can get some?

    thanks

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts David Shearer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    Dave,

    thanks. I shall keep my eyes open for a sti or gti sway bar. I am putting a 604 one on the back after i file the notch for the rear compensator.

    Has anyone been able to track down new rear sway bar linkages? EAI in melbourne does not stock them? Anyone know where i can get some?

    thanks

    shobbz

    Shobbz,

    give PugWreck a go in Melbourne. Hayden has a fair bit of stuff there and may have what you're looking for. I know he does post nationally.

    I don't have a number but they're on Canturbury Rd in Bayswater or Kilsyth.

    good luck
    Dave
    78 Fiat X1/9, Peugeot 406 ST, Peugeot 407 V6 SW

    Previous:

    05 Megane Turbo
    2x 89 405 Mi16
    67 404

    Peugeot, Francais pour "Putain qu'c'est vite"[/FONT]

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    be sure to get the GTI bushes to go with the GTI bar

    i had a GTI bar in a 604 and it was pretty good

    BTW K-mac make one as well from memory

    i'll be putting twin sway bars on the current 604 as i had on a 504 and it was a real weapon through corners

    the 505 steering rack if it was a power steer rack would be a quicker rack

    i had the complete 604 front end in a 504 10 years or so ago and with cheviot wheels and 215/65/14 on board i had the front wheels a fair way outside the car and also had to roll the rear guards to fit them in

    i also ran 3deg neg camber on that car and had it set up to not scrub the inside edges

    the thing handled like it was on rails as my father can testify as this was the same car that did the bathurst to goulburn run over 50km's plus of dirt road and we were sitting in a chinese restaurant in 2 hrs after leaving bathurst

    if anyone knows the road they would understand

    this car also used to go sign post to sign post on macquarie pass in under 5 mins

    the car ran yokohama A509's

    it looked very mean and it handled as good or better than it's mean look
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz
    I cannot spell, one of those things

    I assume that i have 504 control arms as the 604 sway bar is far too wide. I have no knowlege of camber or such things, but i do know that the car is out of allignment by a fair margin.

    The hole, its the size of the bolt holes but it has no thread?

    For some reason the plates that i spoke of on the front struts have come loose, i have no idea why??????????? How do i tightnen them up? A spanner and a flat screwdriver? Can I screm the bolt down too far or something like that?

    ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH suspension!!!!!!!!!! Front or back I am sure that it is trying to send me gray faster than I allready am

    I actually had a look at the 504 sway bar that i have currently on the car. It has a kink in it, possibly from when the car got smacked into something hard by a previous owner. I doubt that I could have done that much damage

    Does this bend pose any problems? Loss of harmony? Will the car behave oddly. I will source a replacement but in the meantime hopefully nothing else goes wrong.

    shobbz

    The 504 sway bar from around 1972 on had a bent appearance. I believe it was a truly ingenious way to incease the stiffness without changing the thickenss of the bar or the mounting points.
    If you look closely you can see that the shape of the bar means the portion which is being subject to torsion is shorter than it would be otherwise, therefore the bar is stiffer. If anyone has any other ideas as to why the bar is shaped like this I would be pleased to know what they are!
    Geoff Booth from Europarts used to sell heaps of bars to panel beaters.
    After a while he woke up to what was going on- they thought the bars were damaged.

    Graham Wallis

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Doesn't the assymetric shape also give clearance around something along the way, Graham?

    Shobbz... the reason your struts have come loose, I would guess, is because those plates were in the wrong spot. There is a little notch into which they fit (have a look, you'll see... or just turn one when it's loose and you'll feel it...) and if it's not there your problem would naturally arise.

    Get a socket that fits the top nut, grind flats (or a hex...) on the upper part so you can get a spanner onto it, then stick the screwdriver down the centre to hold the shaft while you do it up. But make sure the notch is locating the plate first.

    Give me a ring... or text me... I've lost your number again... 0411 280 267.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    Doesn't the assymetric shape also give clearance around something along the way, Graham?

    Shobbz... the reason your struts have come loose, I would guess, is because those plates were in the wrong spot. There is a little notch into which they fit (have a look, you'll see... or just turn one when it's loose and you'll feel it...) and if it's not there your problem would naturally arise.

    Get a socket that fits the top nut, grind flats (or a hex...) on the upper part so you can get a spanner onto it, then stick the screwdriver down the centre to hold the shaft while you do it up. But make sure the notch is locating the plate first.

    Give me a ring... or text me... I've lost your number again... 0411 280 267.
    Maybe the full steel sump, it came out about the same time as the bent bar, but I never thought there was a clearance problem with the late sump and early bar.

    Graham Wallis

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I know that i tend to go on and that i really should take my car to a mechanic............. but I am just stubbon.

    The front castor bushes are correctly in (I got them pushed in professionally) and everything that i can tighten is tight.

    Yet the car still seems to wobble up front? the whole dampening thing is okay, ie up and down yet any sort of pot hole, or similar dodgy road condition the whole car seems to wobble up at the front.

    Over speed bumps the car rides smoothly over, yet on the more harsh 10km/h ones the front end makes a kind of wobbling noise, regardless of how slow i go over them.

    The steering wheel also goes left to right or right to left when i go over these sorts of severe speed humps. It feels like the steering rack is being dragged by the wheel in the direction of the falling wheel so to speak?

    Have i missed something? I am going to get the car on ramps and double check everything. Might also take pedders up on their $14 saftey check and see how many things they can find wrong. That will be fun.

    thanks

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shobbz

    Yet the car still seems to wobble up front? z
    Flector? Does it squirm about in the steering under hard brakes and have a tendancy to tramline?
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    have you checked the wheel alignment ?

    also have you done anything to the rack in regards to rebuilding it ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    The flector is less that 2 years old, and seems to bee in good nic, hopes

    Wheel allignment is off i know but its not that bad. I just put the old steering rack on.

    I really should look at rebuilding the other one to see what is wrong with it, but i fear that it could take ages to do.

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Do the 604 struts you put in have good inserts ? that would explain why the car feels bad...

    I guess the question is do you know how good they are or not ?


    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
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