retightening 505 xn1 cylinder head bolts after initial running
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Thread: retightening 505 xn1 cylinder head bolts after initial running

  1. #1
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    Default retightening 505 xn1 cylinder head bolts after initial running

    hello
    haynes says to completely slacken each bolt then retighten.
    the "ajusa" cylinder head gasket instructions say to slacken 90 degrees and retighten.

    what's your experience?

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    hello
    haynes says to completely slacken each bolt then retighten.
    the "ajusa" cylinder head gasket instructions say to slacken 90 degrees and retighten.

    what's your experience?
    2pac,
    Take a good hold of your computer chair because you are about to have a torrent of answers to your query.
    Most of the replies you will find in previous posts from those with experience but all varying in content.

    I will start my well worn reply from the initial stage fitting as found in the Factory 504 xn1 instruction.

    Stage 1. Tighten to 36 foot lbs.
    Stage 2. Loosen each bolt then tighten to 15 foot lbs. { Each stage tightening to be done following the correct order* }
    Stage 3. Tighten 90 degrees. [quarter turn].

    Re tightening after warm up and absolute cool down.
    Stage 1. Loosen No 1 bolt.
    Stage 2, re tighten to 15 foot lbs.
    Stage 3. Tighten 90 degrees.

    * The bolt tightening sequence ie. 10 6 2 3 7
    Front [4] [3] [2] [1]
    9 5 1 4 8

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    2pac,
    My posted tightening sequence has been incorrectly posted.
    Follow the tightening order as per your manual.

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    you have to loosen each bolt completely?

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    The idea is to make sure it isn't binding so slackening off is just to "break" the thread first

    Sent from my F1f using aussiefrogs mobile app
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    you have to loosen each bolt completely?
    2pac,
    At the re tightening stage just loosen one bolt at a time in the right order. [Remember at this stage there will be coolant in the engine]


    Sherman's point above explains the reasoning behind this method.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    I can't say what should be done, but here is what I was taught by a couple of Pug mechanics and has never let me down :

    Use plenty of Hylomar on the head gasket.
    Tighten in stages to 70 ft/lb.

    Don't worry about re-tightening.
    .................................................. ....
    If you want to re-tighten, loosen off less than 90 degrees, keeping in mind that oil and water can get past the gasket if you slacken it too much. You just want to crack the thread.

    Then do up to 70 ft/lbs.
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    my head job failed. all the coolant in the expansion tank disappeared after 15 minutes and the car wouldn't idle.

    before removing the head again i tested the torque, and 90 degrees which i tightened equals about 50ft/lbs.

    there's a bit mayo in the oil.

    i ordered the compressor tool for the liners, to do it right.
    Last edited by 2pac; 10th February 2017 at 03:17 PM.

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    Well, I guess the reality of that puts to rest the old debate about angle tightening vs torquing.

    All the same, I would have thought that it would not leak at 50 lbs. Except that things did not get initially compressed and seat properly....

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    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    I would've though that angle tightening would be more relevant to TTY bolts
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    On my 505 XN engine I used the original bolts which are not TTY bolts and have been on the engine since day one (500,000 miles to date) when I replaced the head gasket some 10 years ago.

    Tightening was along the lines of 25 Foot lbs,
    then 50 foot lbs,
    and finally 65 Foot lbs.

    And I re-tightened after a warm up and cool down cycle and then rechecked and re-tightened again after 500 miles.


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    Last edited by Roland; 10th February 2017 at 07:48 PM.
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    Roland- what did you do regarding the liner seals? Did you compress them or measured the protrusion?
    did you use hylomar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    I would've though that angle tightening would be more relevant to TTY bolts
    Peter,
    That is correct but the 2.7 litre PRV6 used the angle tightening method as well but with re-usable bolts. Not TTY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    Roland- what did you do regarding the liner seals? Did you compress them or measured the protrusion?
    did you use hylomar?
    Hi 2pac,

    I remember measuring the protrusion because I borrowed a dial gauge from the local mechanic.
    So I must have had the liners clamped down to do this.
    I do remember the protrusion being quite different from one end of the engine compared to the other so I had to make adjustments using different liner seal thicknesses until I was within limits.

    I definitely used a thin smear of sealer on the liner seals when I assembled the block.

    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Well, I guess the reality of that puts to rest the old debate about angle tightening vs torquing.

    All the same, I would have thought that it would not leak at 50 lbs. Except that things did not get initially compressed and seat properly....
    Beano,
    I don't think a debate is necessary I feel it's more that there are two methods that have been in use over time.
    The simple torquing down of the head bolts was early technology ie 203. 403. 404. 504. Although still adhered to in Haynes ?
    Torquing with a final angle tightening possibly came about because of improved gasket material and the observance of bolt behaviour. See Sherman's Post *5.
    The latter method is to be followed according to the factory manual.

    Because we aren't observers it is difficult to wonder what has gone amiss.

    Rolands method in his post *11 has served him well. As I mentioned in my reply *2 there will be many and varied replies to this question.
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    Personally, if the overflow bottle emptied so fast, I'd suspect a leak between inside a liner and the water jacket.

    Which usually amounts to cylinder head surface condition/corrosion in where the "ringed" area of the head gasket mates with the head.

    But we really need to wait for forensics from 2pac before double guessing.

    And in spite of my varied methods of tensioning XN cylinder head, on one occasion without a torque wrench, on the side of the road, tensioning by guesstimate with a ratchet handle with plug spanner over it for more leverage.

    I've never had a leak on start up nor when I come to think of, ever.

    So I 'd suggest torquing is less important than the condition of the mating surfaces.

    A nice spread of hylomar helps I'd think.
    Last edited by robmac; 10th February 2017 at 10:23 PM.
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    I haven't seen any great improvement in gasket material over the years in ALL brands. There is one brand which has the (crappy) hard, mono-torque material. And in other gaskets they still put a minimal amount of heat-activated sealant on critical areas. Hence the recommendation for Hylomar.

    And bolt behaviour in 505s is the same as in 504s....they are basically huge springs. But they are very robust bolts.

    Yes, we are not there to see what happened. Some odd thing may have occurred. That was a substantial water leak...

    Hey 2pac.....what did the rear exhaust-side cylinder bolt thread (in the block) look like ? Good thread ?

    Not that this would cause a water leak like you had. But it's a weak point.

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    Idont recall if 2pac removed the liners and replaced the seals . in the last 50myears I have built many engines ad use Aero grade hylomar on the base seals and NOTHING on the head gasket but torque to 70 pounds and retoque to 70 on all xn engines no bolt slackening bullshit and never had a customer engine complaint.
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    i put new liners and seals and cleaned as best as possible the mating faces down the bores.
    i bought the head reconditioned, but i'll take it to check the mating face condition.
    could it have failed because i waited 2 months from installing the head until i started it?

    roland- what kind of sealer did you use on the seals?

    ianrobbo- what kind of hylomar did you use on the liner seals? the Hylomar M aerosol?

    how do one use the peugeot compressor tool?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    . . . Could it have failed because I waited 2 months from installing the head until I started it? . . .
    I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    . . . Roland- what kind of sealer did you use on the seals? . . .
    I would have used a silicone type sealer - much the same as you would use nowadays to seal rocker covers or sumps which have no gasket.


    Cheers
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    Last edited by Roland; 11th February 2017 at 03:43 AM.
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    aero grade hylomar is in a tube you can also use silicon sealer for the base seals.
    Liner protrusion is impotant i use the thicker shims most times and the liner clamps are not 100percent necessary if you are fitting the head right away fit the inner pistons first turn the crank to bottom pulls the liners down as you turn fit pistons 1 and4 then fit the head
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    2pac,
    Just to add to the confusion. The head gasket fitted, was it for an 1800cc XM7 engine or 2 litre XN1 ?
    There is a difference in the bore diameter. They also have a different part no.
    The simplest way of securing the liners is to use 4 large washers that will overlap the liners. Hold them down with suitable bolts or use head bolts with spacers.
    Your proposed purchase of tools is a bit of a luxury.

    ianrobbo,
    Did you find when re-torquing the head to 70 ft lbs that only some of the studs appeared to tighten up where the remainder didn't move?
    This, to me is where the revised torquing method comes in to play. The slackening and tightening ["shit"] using a final angle pull in one movement overcomes the "stickacity" [my word] of the threads.

    Back in the day and being a pedantic sod I've always stuck with the makers methods re the revised torquing methods. I can't claim 50 engines and the alternative methods used but the best of British luck to those that have.

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    Back in the day and being a pedantic sod I've always stuck with the makers methods re the revised torquing methods. I can't claim 50 engines and the alternative methods used but the best of British luck to those that have.
    FWIW, I'd suggest getting one's torque wrench calibration confirmed would be money better spent that purchasing an "angle gauge" tool.

    From 403s onward, I've lubricated the head bolt threads with copper kote, after chasing the block with a tap.

    And then pull the bolts to 70 lb/ ft in three stages. As suggested to me by the very late Brian Thomas .

    The very fact that the procedure changed mid engine production, suggests to me if a repair procedure has worked perfectly fine in the past why should it be changed.
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    After blowing out the bolt holes with compressed air and spraying a little bit of RP7 in them I've tightened the head bolts in stages as per the book. I've used the same procedure on 403,404 and 504 heads.

    Of course, I've always paid very close attention to the block face and the head face, making sure they are both as pristine as possible. I've never had a Peugeot head skimmed.

    I've always checked liner protrusion with the aid of a spirit level with a milled edge and a feeler gauge. I check the head for distortion the same way.

    I've also used Hylomar on the head gasket faces and can't recall ever having had a head gasket leak.
    Last edited by Peter Chisholm; 11th February 2017 at 03:23 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    2pac,
    Just to add to the confusion. The head gasket fitted, was it for an 1800cc XM7 engine or 2 litre XN1 ?
    There is a difference in the bore diameter. They also have a different part no.
    Good point.

    2pac....did you examine the parts carefully and notice which cylinder got the water going through it ?
    Or was it all too new and still clean for you to see that ?

    To sum up :

    ...Clean your head bolt holes with a chaser or a tap.....you'll get 6 tons of clamping force as a result, whereas without cleaning you'll get as little as 2 tons.

    .....Get a steel ruler and check straightness of head.

    .....Use steel ruler and feeler gauge to check liner protrusion.

    .....Clean head bolt threads with a wire wheel and lubricate them and the bolt holes with a very small amount of copper or moly grease.

    ....Check the exhaust-side rear bolt hole thread.....it must be perfect as it is the first one to degrade from heat. If necessary, helicoil it.

    ......Tighten bolts in stages, and try to do the last bit (from 40 or 50 to 65 or 70) in one swing of the torque wrench.

    .......Use a different brand head gasket...."Meillor" brand is a little softer than other ones. (Hard is bad, very slightly soft is good).


    Apologies if I missed anyones suggestion.
    Last edited by Beano; 11th February 2017 at 07:13 PM.

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