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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    404 online article

    While surfing the web I came across this article on the 404. I think there are one or two mistakes, but it gives the old 404 a good wrap up.
    <a href="http://www.ccar.com.au/FIRST.HTM" target="_blank">404 article link</a>

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Yes, a few errors (there were at least two gear boxes over here - C3 and a BA - and the worm drive gave way to a hypoid, for example) but nice to see the car getting some recognition.

    Quite an interesting site . be intersting to see how it develops.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I nearly laughed out loud when I read that the worm and wheel rear ends can be replaced with hypoid LSD units!

    Sure, this can be done, but the bodyshells for the hypoid cars are different. The transmission tunnel in these is FAR higher (especially towards the back of the car). Putting a hypoid drivetrain in a worm drive bodyshell will result in HARD grounding of the torque tube on the rear of the transmission tunnel, under moderate compression.

    Besides, a properly adjusted and lubricated worm drive unit is superior (IMO) to the hypoid. Throw in the extra rear legroom and it's an unbeatable combination.

    The writer also neglected to mention the existence of the pretty and desirable 404 Coupé, sister car to the Cabriolet.

    P.S. I have one of these, so I'm biased.
    -Mike
    1966 404 Coupé KF2
    1989 405 DL
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  4. #4
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    Gee, seems a typical Australian Classic Car magazine article.

    As for galvanised panels, why have I seen so many with rusty panels, sills and chassis rails! It was also a funny looking 203 that won the 1955 Redex too, I wonder why the writer didn't mention the 1953 Redex 203 victory.......

    Do these people do ANY research!
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Probably not a lot.
    When did the worm go? Mine is 1970. Will it have worm? it is a long time since I really got underneath it.
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    The worm went well before then, from memory, Maybe when they went from the C3 to the BA gearbox? 67 or 68? or was it earlier?

    They used to call the panel treatment process "electrophoresis". It wasn't really full galvanising. Yes, they still rusted , but the early ones were even worse.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 04 June 2003, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    Rod Hagen:

    They used to call the panel treatment process "electrophoresis". It wasn't really full galvanising. Yes, they still rusted , but the early ones were even worse.

    Cheers

    Rod
    You couldn't even vaguely describe Electrophoresis as galvanising! The Electrophoresis process was introduced in 1970, and would only have been used on the last of the 404's. Also not being fully developed there were lots of teething problems which led to the early electrophoresis cars rusting prematurely, probably one reason why Sunburst Brown 404's are such a rare sight. Most of the 404's that seem to have survived seem to be from the mid to late 60's, post C&G and pre Electrophoresis.

    Simon
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Mine is a 1970 and I think it is Sunburst brown. Is that the brown used on early 504s? If so then it is the colour of my 404
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  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    yeah they did their homework and research
    they asked a few people
    read the bottom of the article
    but what they do with what ever info they get after that is anyones guess
    Mr Portelli even got some advertising in there
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  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Rod Hagen:
    The worm went well before then, from memory, Maybe when they went from the C3 to the BA gearbox? 67 or 68? or was it earlier?
    Your memory is failing you dreadfully...

    There was never a hypoid 404 sold in Australia. In fact, I've never seen one at all anywhere.

    The only clue I have ever had that such things existed was that a 1970 book of cars all around th world listed specs... and the fuel injected 404 was listed as having a 3.78:1 rear end.

    This thread (or Mike's post in it) is the first confirmation I've ever seen that this is correct.

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    not sure about sedans but there were definately utes and wagons from about 68 onwards that were hypoid equipped
    this i know as i have converted a few with 504 centres
    but as i say i am not 100% sure about the sedans
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  12. #12
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    There was never a hypoid sedan for the simple reason that they won't fit in the tunnel as Mike has said. People have fitted hypoids and used stiffer springs to limit the travel. Crazy, why not just go and buy a Commodore?
    The hypoid wagons had an enlarged tunnel and a slimmer torque tube at the front end.
    The worst 404s were the 1968 models. The C and G cars were the best for rust due to not having a dirt and water trap under the back of the boot. I have found most 1970 models to be better than 1967 to 1969 models, the Electrophorisis worked most of the time.

    Graham Wallis
    The C and G cars have dissapeared due to peoples preferance for the later gearbox and clutch.

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    GRAHAM WALLIS:
    There was never a hypoid sedan for the simple reason that they won't fit in the tunnel as Mike has said. People have fitted hypoids and used stiffer springs to limit the travel. Crazy, why not just go and buy a Commodore?.....
    You mean 'never in Australian production'? Mike says they did happen overseas... or at least he implies this.

    Go buy a Commodore? Yes, they'd be better off, but they might jack the rear end of that up too, maybe to fit bigger tyres?

    I hadn't ever realised there was a reason for that slimmer front end to the 404 wagon torque tube, Graham, how foolish of me!

    I seem to be having trouble, by the way, remembering when various changes took place in 404s. I used to know them so intimately... so the angled lower section of the boot panel came in with the 1967 model?

    I wonder if we really should have a thread detailing all the changes and dates of changes?

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Rod Hagen:
    The worm went well before then, from memory, Maybe when they went from the C3 to the BA gearbox? 67 or 68? or was it earlier?
    Your memory is failing you dreadfully...

    There was never a hypoid 404 sold in Australia. In fact, I've never seen one at all anywhere.

    The only clue I have ever had that such things existed was that a 1970 book of cars all around th world listed specs... and the fuel injected 404 was listed as having a 3.78:1 rear end.

    This thread (or Mike's post in it) is the first confirmation I've ever seen that this is correct.
    Well, Ray, the diff I pulled out my one of my father's wagons was definitely a hypoid!

    (EDIT - whoops - it always pays to read the rest of the thread! Looks like we were both right and both wrong! The later wagon definitely had a hypoid though)

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 05 June 2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Oh yes... the wagon had the hypoid diff and the C3 gearbox (and mechanical clutch linkage) through 1967 after having the worm diff between '64 and '66... I think the first ones we got were '64 anyway.

    Then the BA7 went in and the hydraulic clutch with it in 1968... and so it remained for the balance of the time they were on sale... till '72?

    Utilities had the hypoid for their entire production run here, which I think was from 1968. All of them, as far as I know, had the BA7 and hydraulic clutch.

    Now, one assumes that the tunnel was different in these wagons from 1967 on as well... is this true?

    Or did that smaller diameter torque tube give the necessary clearance?

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Following up on this, found a nice archive site with back copies of "Worm review" on it at the Peugeot Car Club of Luxembourg www site - <a href="http://www.pccl.org/Gordon_Miller/Worm_Review.html" target="_blank">http://www.pccl.org/Gordon_Miller/Worm_Review.html</a>

    Cheers

    Rod
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  17. #17
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    Ray,
    Mike didn't say that the hypoid was fitted to O/S cars and I did say that the wagon had a different shaped tunnel!
    The new sedan I drove in New Caledonia in 1973 (end of European production) was worm drive.
    Graham Wallis

  18. #18
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    Yep, I did not mean to imply that the 404 saloons ever had hypoid rear axles, because they did not. It was only the utility vehicles and wagons that had this. Sorry for the confusion.

    Ray, the "World Cars" info on the 3.78 rear axle ratio in injected 404s is wrong. I've seen this too. As a matter of fact, by 1969 there were no more new 404 Injections, for one thing. For another, all saloons with the injection engine had the worm drive and a 4.2:1 ratio. Actually, 3.78 would have been about right in a 404 Injection for modern highway travel, making it kinder on a 404 Coupé to cruise at a steady 160 km/h!! That never stopped me anyway wink
    -Mike
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  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I prefer the worm myself... sorry I misunderstood your post, Mike. It seemed to me that it was saying there was a bigger tunnel. And Graham was saying it and I missed it!

  20. #20
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    My 1973 South African built 404 had a worm drive.

    Dave
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