help with rebuilding 505 xn1 engine
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Thread: help with rebuilding 505 xn1 engine

  1. #1
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    Default help with rebuilding 505 xn1 engine

    hello
    i sent the crankshaft to a specialist who said it's ok (although there are some scratches around the journals).
    today i fitted new main bearings (the later type for crank with no plugs), oiled them, put each cap in its place, tightened the bolts to 75 nM with a bead of blue loctite, and the crank won't turn with a spanner, it was simply stuck. i had to retighten to about 60 in order to be able to turn it.

    there was also zero endfloat with the old shims, whereas before i removed it from the block the endfloat was about 0.1-0.15 measured with a feeler blade.

    so i removed the caps and the bearing shells were finished.

    any ideas what happened?

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    also i'm not sure about the correct position of the shims, i fitted them each side of the journal as marked in red in the picture, is that right? maybe one shim has to go where the yellow arrow?
    help with rebuilding 505 xn1 engine-img_1281.jpg

  2. #2
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    The shims go as per your red arrows but be careful to set them up correctly as you fit the rear cap. You may have trapped a piece of grit under one of the shells remove all and clean again in case this is so. try agai tightening slowly and testing for turning after each journal is torqued. also perhaps polish the scratches on the journals.

  3. #3
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    I suspect my torque wrench is not suitable for the job. it's 60-300nM (or 330), probably at the lower range it's just useless.

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Is that photo taken before you cleaned up the block???
    Jo

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    After. Why?

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    After. Why?
    It still looks grubby.

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    2pac,
    Do not oil the back of the bearing shells. [I think I've posted this previously].Surprisingly, or not, the extra thickness of oil on the back will result in the locking up of the journal.
    When fitting main bearings check to see if the shaft will turn as each bearing cap is tightened down.

    What type of torque wrench are you using? I've found the 'dual signal' type to give a better read out. Aussie readers will know this type to be the Warren and Brown brand. [This should get everyone going!]

  8. #8
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    I didn't oil the back of the shells, it doesn't make sense to do that.
    I'm using Norbar click wrench.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    Are the shell bearings the correct size? Are they oversize when the crankshaft journals are standard?
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    Need to get some Plastigauge to work out your bearing clearances.

    If it won't turn it is incorrect.

    Plastigauge - Plastic Precision Clearance Gauges

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Chisholm View Post
    Are the shell bearings the correct size? Are they oversize when the crankshaft journals are standard?
    they were Peugeot std. shells.

    Need to get some Plastigauge to work out your bearing clearances.

    If it won't turn it is incorrect.

    Plastigauge - Plastic Precision Clearance Gauges
    the crank came back from a machinsit, i want to believe he's done his job and not only cleaned it and took money.
    he said the dimensions are alright according to the data i gave him, and he just made some lapping.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Peter Chisholm's Avatar
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    I'd do as Wildebeest advised and I'd also recheck that the shells are standard. When you say the bearing should were "finished", do you mean they are now damaged?

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    After being stuffed around so many times with shell bearings.

    Now, I alway offer the bare shells up to the oil lubed crank journals. If there is gap between the shells, or the shells meet and are still a loose fit on the journal, something is wrong.

    A rough indication of correct fit is that the shells are closed and a firm fit on the journal, and oil "squishes" out as you rock the hand closed pair of shells on the journal.

    It sounds to me like you could have a some oversize shells fitted to standard crank.
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  14. #14
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    Nope, they are defo std. bearings.
    I'll buy some 20-100 torque and see what happens.

    I'd do as Wildebeest advised and I'd also recheck that the shells are standard. When you say the bearing should were "finished", do you mean they are now damaged?
    Yes, they got damaged.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Were _ALL_ of the bearing shells damaged ?

    Or just a couple ?

  16. #16
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    Some of them

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    Make sure you use sewing machine oil on the bore NOT engine oil.

    Using engine oil can prevent rings from bedding in properly.

    Engineer mate had a client with a Cosworth engine...he
    pulled in down a bunch of times after a rebuild......Mate said 'Bring it over & we will sort it out..........Shorten...[Not Bill] a long story...honed engine...sewing machine....bedded in properly...NO blowby....

    He showed me well known Oil Ring manuf. spec sheet.......AS ABOVE.......

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    It still looks grubby.
    Did my best to clean it with diesel on the balcony.
    help with rebuilding 505 xn1 engine-image.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails help with rebuilding 505 xn1 engine-image.jpg  
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    It doesn't cost much to have the local engine builder wash it in the hot tank. Saves you the mess and does a realy good job of cleaning all the crud off.

    One test i used was what I jokingly call the 'bum wipe Test'... Grab a clean white towel and wet with a bit of fluid (wd40/thinners/carb clean/kero), wipe the surface.....If the rag comes up dirty....the part is not clean.

    Good luck...
    Jo
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Were _ALL_ of the bearing shells damaged ?

    Or just a couple ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    Some of them
    This is a giveaway, and indicates to me that the problem is that you have either :

    1) accidentally mixed up the main bearing caps, or

    2) put on some the wrong way around (I'm not sure if this is even possible...it's been a few years since I rebuilt one of these engines. Certainly the rear one is unique).

    I'd say #1, the reason being that only SOME were damaged.
    During my very first engine rebuild, I did this with one conrod cap.

    Bearing caps are not interchangeable. The same one has to be put back where it came from, the same way around.
    The reason for this is that when the holes for the crank are created and milled into the block, slight differences occur.

    When you put a different one back, it may look the same, but it does not create a perfect circle.

    You've probably mixed up the two middle ones. They were probably the damaged ones, right ?
    Last edited by Beano; 5th November 2016 at 02:57 PM.

  21. #21
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    It's really impossible to mix either the shells or the caps, they are wide-narrow-wide-narrow-wide, with a descending diameter from front to rear, #2 shell has the locating dent on the other side, and i marked them before removing.
    You can only put the caps in the opposite way, but there are casting marks on them which should point toward the rear and i made sure to fit them this way.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Ok...just checking. I myself certainly did fat-headed things when I was first building engines.....and occasionally from time to time after that.

    And I still do, sometimes

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekay49 View Post
    Make sure you use sewing machine oil on the bore NOT engine oil.

    Using engine oil can prevent rings from bedding in properly.

    Engineer mate had a client with a Cosworth engine...he
    pulled in down a bunch of times after a rebuild......Mate said 'Bring it over & we will sort it out..........Shorten...[Not Bill] a long story...honed engine...sewing machine....bedded in properly...NO blowby....

    He showed me well known Oil Ring manuf. spec sheet.......AS ABOVE.......
    There are several types of sewing machine oil.
    there's 10w oil, there's white oil...

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