407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!
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Thread: 407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Default 407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!

    407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!-dsc05005.jpg407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!-dsc05003.jpg407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!-dsc05000.jpg407 Coupe Tyre noise Identified!-dsc05001.jpg

    My coupe has had a tyre noise since new. (Dealers "could not hear it", "all Pirellis do that".)

    Got the BIG "STOP" on the dash Sunday.

    Nearly died when I removed the front right hand wheel!
    The tyre is through to the belt in one place and almost through at about 90degrees to that. Hence flat and the noise?

    The other 3 tyres fitted are all worn on the inside (not as badly) and only at 28000km.

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    Always run plus 5 psi on recommended pressures.

    Strange finding was that the crook tyre was manufactured week 41 of 07, the other 4 (includes spare) were all manufactured week 40 of 07 (Coincidental?).

    Would Mr Pirelli entertain warranty?

    Michelins to be fitted shortly.
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    Fellow Frogger! dhaw's Avatar
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    Will you get Brooks to align and balance?

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    G'day,

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  4. #4
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    The tyre is not the fault. You have a poor wheel alignment. Road tyres need to be less than 8 years old to be roadworthy.

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    Could be the alignments, though I don't know how. The car has never been off the tar, never hit a gutter or big hole and during warranty I made the dealers wheel align it 3 times (Slight pull left). It came back within "minutes" of spec (the last time). I checked it (String lines, plumbs and inclinometer).

    Did a lot of "googling" and appears Pug is not the only car wearing the insides, looks like it is a combination of wide tyres and larger camber settings.

    I still say this is a faulty tyre!

    When I fit the new tyres I will check the alignments again (I may have to take it to Brooks).
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    COL
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    There could also be a worn suspension component on the side that tire came off, sometimes the problems take some finding as its hard to apply the loadings by hand that the suspension experiences when the car is mobile.

    If you can't find anything yourself I would be taking it to a proper suspension specialist, along with the tire so that they can diagnose the problem.
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    Regards Col

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    Might have something to do with the castor setting and the way the inside part of the thre wears when turning right. Unloaded side I know! Almost like dragging as the car turns. Just a thought.

    I would aos check the alignment by someone other than a dealer.
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    Might have something to do with the castor setting and the way the inside part of the thre wears when turning right. Unloaded side I know! Almost like dragging as the car turns. Just a thought.

    I would aos check the alignment by someone other than a dealer.
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post

    My coupe has had a tyre noise since new. (Dealers "could not hear it", "all Pirellis do that".)

    Got the BIG "STOP" on the dash Sunday.

    Nearly died when I removed the front right hand wheel!
    The tyre is through to the belt in one place and almost through at about 90degrees to that. Hence flat and the noise?
    I've only ever had one tyre wear through to the belt (it came out the side!) and that was a Michelin.
    Regards,

    Simon

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    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    I've only ever had one tyre wear through to the belt (it came out the side!) and that was a Michelin.
    Short story: 1978 I drove the Ti to Perth and back. Took 2 spares (original Michelin XAs).

    Travelling west at Ceduna I put both the old spares tyres on, and back on my return to Ceduna I swapped them for my good tyres.

    WOW!!! Both were worn through to the steel belt on the insides (about 20mm wide!).

    One could imagine I had not been letting the grass grow under the wheels, constant speeds of around 140 all day long (for how many days?).

    Michelins must be (or have been) good tyres.

    Only a bit of a rumble out of them too.
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  11. #11
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    Could be the alignments, though I don't know how. The car has never been off the tar, never hit a gutter or big hole and during warranty I made the dealers wheel align it 3 times (Slight pull left). It came back within "minutes" of spec (the last time). I checked it (String lines, plumbs and inclinometer).

    Did a lot of "googling" and appears Pug is not the only car wearing the insides, looks like it is a combination of wide tyres and larger camber settings.

    I still say this is a faulty tyre!

    When I fit the new tyres I will check the alignments again (I may have to take it to Brooks).
    UPDATE:

    Fitted 2 new Michelin Pilot 4 tyres ($280 each) to the front and moved the best Pirellis to the back today.


    I again checked all the wheel cambers and they are set within minutes of the warranty alignment and spec settings.
    However, the tyres do not make any noise now and also the car has lost its pull to the left (which it has done since new).

    I still say that it was a faulty tyre.
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  12. #12
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    Advised by tyre merchant:
    Tyres get a "set" (wear pattern) in them.
    Whatever caused them to get that set, almost stuffs them for life.
    You can re-align till the cows come home, the damage has been done.
    Only cure are new tyres.

    Seen that many times on numerous vehicles I have owned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85Fuego View Post
    Advised by tyre merchant:
    Tyres get a "set" (wear pattern) in them.
    Whatever caused them to get that set, almost stuffs them for life.
    You can re-align till the cows come home, the damage has been done.
    Only cure are new tyres.

    Seen that many times on numerous vehicles I have owned.
    Partial prevention & partial cure is regular rotation (&, sometimes, flipping on the rim if not asymmetric).

    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    UPDATE:

    Fitted 2 new Michelin Pilot 4 tyres ($280 each) to the front and moved the best Pirellis to the back today.


    .
    I would try putting the old Pirellis on the front.

    Two reasons:

    First, although you don't say what type the Pirellis are, the chances are that they are less tautly structured than the very crisp PS4s. Add to this that the Pirellis' compound will have lost a considerable amount of flexibility & thus wet grip & the upshot is that, even though you are driving a front wheel drive car, you are asking for rear end instability in any sharp manoeuvre, especially in the wet.

    Second, you would be wise to move towards having 4 PS4s asap. (Personally I would not have retained the two 2007 Pirellis.) The end of the car which wears tyres out fastest is the front. Put your best Pirelli on the front left & the other one on the front right & your PS4s on the rear. Hopefully you will then soon be on 4 PS4s (a very good tyre according to test results).

    cheers! Peter

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    A left to right and back to front swap will break the "set".

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcc236 View Post
    A left to right and back to front swap will break the "set".
    Agree.
    My experience is that when the "set" has set, the remaining tyre life is not much.
    And I am one of those guys that buys 2 sets of tyres for the front to 1 set for the rear.
    I chuck them and buy a new pair of tyres for the front.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    I would try putting the old Pirellis on the front.

    Two reasons:

    First, although you don't say what type the Pirellis are, the chances are that they are less tautly structured than the very crisp PS4s. Add to this that the Pirellis' compound will have lost a considerable amount of flexibility & thus wet grip & the upshot is that, even though you are driving a front wheel drive car, you are asking for rear end instability in any sharp manoeuvre, especially in the wet.

    Second, you would be wise to move towards having 4 PS4s asap. (Personally I would not have retained the two 2007 Pirellis.) The end of the car which wears tyres out fastest is the front. Put your best Pirelli on the front left & the other one on the front right & your PS4s on the rear. Hopefully you will then soon be on 4 PS4s (a very good tyre according to test results).

    cheers! Peter
    P Zero Nero 235 45 r18 98Y.

    I too toyed with the idea of both 4 new Michelins and also putting the Pirellis on the front, I put the new tyres on the front to see what would happen.

    Strangely enough (for me) I have never pushed this car ever.

    I know consider I have proved what I thought the problem was.

    As far as the Michelins being "very crisp", at present the car steers like it is has over assisted steering, too light compared to the Pirellis. Maybe when the front Michelins are scrubbed in they will improve?

    I think the rear fitted Pirellis may be replaced fairly soon. I can still see another 5000km in the rear Pirellis (The rate the coupe has racked up kms, that could be in the next 12 months).

    Just out of interest, a) The new Michelins are not a lot softer than the old Pirellis. b) The Pirellis are a far better looking tyre fitted on the coupe.
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    Interesting.

    The PZN is the sloppiest of the PZ range structures & certainly not as taut as the PS4. What you are reporting is a result of that mismatch of structures & no, it won't improve as the PS4 wears. If anything, it will get worse as the PS4 tread blocks get shorter.

    Put the Pirellis on the front & you'll see a difference. (And, as already observed, I think that you should do that for other reasons - if the PZNs are as close to rooted as you say, then put then on the front & kill them as quickly as possible.)

    But if, for some reason obscure to me, you want to keep the PS4s on the front, then try lowering their pressures in 2psi steps until you get the feel & handling balance you want. Raising the rears has much the same effect. Either way, you are changing the relative front/rear structural tautness of the tyres. From what you've said about your driving style, I'd incline towards lowering the fronts.

    cheers! Peter
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    Just be careful next time you are driving in the wet! That is when you will find out whether you have a problem with the old pirelli's on the rear. Even if you don't think you are pushing it, you may discover otherwise

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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Looks like Pirellis to the front. Makes sense.
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    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    Looks like Pirellis to the front. Makes sense.
    I would be curious to see a report on the transposition.

    cheers! Peter

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    I would be curious to see a report on the transposition.

    cheers! Peter
    With the old Pirellis back on the front and tyres at Pug recommended pressures (35 front, 30 rear) the car steered wonderfully again (and without any pulling).

    However they made noises at slow speed (like before, like a 4WD).


    Just ordered 2 more Michelin sport 4s for the front.


    Will advice on how 4 Michelin sport 4s steer. (Next episode).


    PS 28,000km and 9 years is a reasonable effort for tyres on a 2 ton car!
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  23. #23
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    It's nice to have one's hypothesis confirmed in practice: :-)

    Thanks, Peter

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    I am in love with my coupe!!(Sorry Pug206Gti ).

    Fitted 2 new Michelin Sport 4 tyres to front this morning (Fitted to all wheels now).

    Took it for a short drive, still wishy washy, too light a steering feeling. Dropped front tyres 2 psi as suggested by 4cvg:- Transformed the slow speed steering feeling.

    This coupe has NEVER steered like this from brand new!! No pulling, No slow speed noises and steers just like it should for what it cost. I noticed the pulling on my test drive in 2009, the car had only a few kms on it.

    I wish I had replaced those bloody Pirelli tyres years ago!


    Thanks for your input 4cvg.

    PS Just out of interest. I set the 4 Michelins to Pug specs cold (Note: I took the wheels to the tyre suppliers loose) 35F & 30R, for the first test, stopped after only about 5kms to drop the front pressures, and all 4 tyres pressures had risen 2.5 psi (Surprising!).
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  25. #25
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    glad that it's all worked out well.

    I had a mismatched set on my R8 a year or two ago. Front tyres were relatively taut & stable in tread structure. Rear tyres were sloppier in structure (but that's generally tuneable with tyre pressures) & more unstable in tread than the fronts. I ended up fitting softer rear springs to the rear to stress the rear tyres less. Fortunately, your situation was simpler :-)

    cheers! Peter

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