Rubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Default Rubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism

    If you have an early 205GTI, you probably have the same clutch mechanism setup as I do, with the little lever pushing against the clutch fork lever via a small steel rod (about 5cm long).

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    This rod is not attached in any way at either end, but the constant pressure on it doesn't allow it to fall out. Plus, at both ends it sits in concave surfaces so these would need to pull apart a fair bit to allow the rod to fall out. It does fall out when you disconnect the clutch cable if you're not careful, though.

    Now, looking at the lever, it seems there was a little bellow that kept the grease in there, but mine seems to have gone awol.

    The question is, does anyone have any experience/idea if there is a similar bellow available anywhere? I guess it could be one of those generic bellows you can buy for balljoints, which is kept in place with a springy ring/circlip around the base, but it would have to be a small one.

    Anyone?
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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    A professional would drill a hole in the middle of it and tie wire it back to the bolt.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    If you use molybdenum disulfide grease. ( the black grease) and dropping a bit of oil on the the horrible set up , every service, has worked well for me over the years. Clutch in fine adjustment too.
    I seem to recall that the rod was just as you explained when the vehicles were new, the rod had zinc plating as did the bell crank. I think the clutch fork may have been powder coated in satin black. The rod did have a spring clip sort of retainer. You may find it in a part catalogue.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    Oh gee perhaps it was a rubber boot on the rod. Sorry, man. I always thought a tension spring between the fork and lever to pull the two levers together onto the rod would be beaut.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Don't think there is any need for springs, etc. because like I said above, the two levers push hard against the rod, hence no chance of it coming out in normal operation. Yeah, if your cable snapped and you lost tension, you might lose the rod, but given this didn't happen in the past 29 years, I am willing to take that chance. Plus, if I had some tight bellows around the rod, I doubt it would fall out. I'll dig through my spares, I might have some bellows off a BMW clutch slave in the right size.

    Yeah, what happened on my car is that at some point the loop that wraps around the hard steel button the rod is pushing against broke off and some farfnufnigg engineering has been employed to weld it back. This is not the fork lever, but the other one. The fork lever has a little cavity pressed in it (talk about bare bones engineering). Of course, the welding was so crap, it broke and I had to drive the car home without the clutch. I suspected the cable was gone, but there you go.

    And it seems the undesirable character who did the job took quite a few attempts to do it. I'll have the thing repaired properly, but was wondering if I could find a bellow too just for the extra protection. That said, I never had any problems with the grease coming out, and yes I used some really sticky moly grease. It is so sticky, the rod didn't even fall off when I took the whole thing apart. Just keeps attracting crap and annoys me.

    Looking at it, this lever is so crap you'd think it was made by a pikie. Two 2mm steel plates pressed into mirror image shapes and spot welded together at three points, with a bush for the rocking shaft pressed and welded in the middle. The end the rod is pushing against is so flimsy, I am surprised it held for so long. Well, not that long considering the previous owner attempts at fixing it.

    The rocking shaft rides inside an aluminium bush (which is knackered as well) and at the top end it has a plastic sleeve (whadda?!). Cracked and broken, of course. I'll bore the bush out to 19 mm and use four 10x19 bearings instead, with the two outer ones flanged to locate the arm (lever). That'll teach it!

    And then I started thinking of making my own arm from scratch and doing away with this espece de merde. If I had the time, I would. Maybe I should buy a welder and....nah.

    PS. The fork is zinc plated, the bell crank seems hot dip painted (reminds me of the R12 lower suspension arms if you've ever seen any. Maybe Pug is buying leftovers from Renault). The little rod is shiny steel and seems to be some really tough material.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 28th September 2016 at 08:54 PM.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Mine is a 1987 S1 205Gti. Hope the photos are of assistance. The last photo is of a new fork with a plastic doover which had perished off the one in the car. There was no clip in mine when I opened it up. It does have the rubber boot.


    Rubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-1.jpgRubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-2.jpgRubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-3.jpgRubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-4.jpgRubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-5.jpg
    Any day I wake up and don't have to go to work, is a good day
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Thanks Fivedoor. That's not my problem. I replaced the fork when I changed the engine. My problem is with the bell crank that reverses the movement of the cable and pushes against the fork with a little steel rod.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Oops, bit tired, 6 hours of "work" and I have had it
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    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    It's interesting the cup on the link arm has a lip that looks like it would take a rubber boot or bellows but the parts listing doesn't show anything.

    I've got my parts ready to go back in and am going to put a retainer on, drilled and linked back to the link arm.


  10. #10
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What retainer ?

    Yeap, that is why I thought there might have been a rubber below there.

    What is part number 4? Some sort of rubber cap to protect the thread on the end of the cable?

    I just had another brain wave.

    I will try this. Fill the cup with grease, put the rod in, and cover up with RTV silicone forming a rubber boot around the rod and the cup groove. This should trap the grease inside.

    Ha! I'm a genius.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 29th September 2016 at 01:44 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! stew's Avatar
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    I think it was a coiled spring type of thing on the bell crank end and it would hold the rod, ( only just) if the cable broke and the rod became loose. Wrapped once around the rod and sort of clipped to the bell crank.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    OK sports fans! here is the same diagram from a 309 and 405, both have different springs listed that are not on the 205 diagram. Are these springs for cable/lever return?

    309 BE1
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	5F21H10A  - 309BE1 clutch cable.gif 
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ID:	89564
    405 BE1
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ZF21H10A 405BE1 clutch cable.gif 
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Size:	8.5 KB 
ID:	89565

  13. #13
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    Would one of you series 1 guys mind taking a photo of this as it's installed at the moment in the car? Mines all in pieces so I just want to see how it looks all together as I will try to put it back tonight.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Mine's out as well. But if you look at the diagrams above, they are actual exploded diagrams of how everything comes together.

    Looking at the 405 one just above my post, clip no2 is bolted to the top of the gearbox (big end to the front of the car), under the battery tray, the cable sleeve is supported in the small collar thingie, and the stop is caught in the big collar thingie, (see a line with an arc pointing at the cable where it goes in the bracket).

    The cable end goes through the big eyelet (where no5 line points) of the bell crank, again the same drill (stopper plastic fits snug in the eyelet, the rest is kept in place by adjusting the nuts on the end of the cable where part no3 goes - I don't know what no3 is anyway).

    The little rod (no 4 in the picture) goes in between the cup in the bell crank (see it is pointing at it in the picture) and clutch fork (this is not in the picture, you'll see it poking out of your gearbox) where there is a small indentation to locate it.

    Shoulder bolt 6 goes through all those bushes and the bell crank as pictured, and screws into the flywheel bell housing. You'll find where very easily, there's only one hole there. I don't even have that bolt, dang it. Mine has been replaced with a stud.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 29th September 2016 at 06:16 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure the 205 has nothing retaining the rod except for the fit in the cups and pressure from the cable adjustment. That's a fairly poor design, so any retainer you come up with will be an improvement. It would certainly be annoying to replace if it is lost in the case of a broken cable.
    Regarding the spring in the 309&405 diagrams, I've dug a bit and that looks to be related to returning the lever not retaining the rod. Both are the same part number even though depicted differently.
    Someone on another forum mentioned that they used a wheel cylinder rubber boot to fit over the link lever end and around the rod, that would also keep your grease in Schlitz.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yes, I know, but "normal" rubbers don't like grease very much. I was thinking of making my own as explained above out of RTV silicone because I have done things like that before, just never thought I could put it on grease. It's going to be tricky, but the stuff fuses to itself very easily if the blobs just touch, without any pressure to mix (I guess applying any pressure would squeeze the grease out and you'd end up with a very interesting mess of something that sticks to anything and something that lubricates everything - ha!). Besides, using silicone would guarantee the sucker is stuck to the bell crank cup.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    ok, sounds interestingly fun, put up a photo of the concoction

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that I could just put the silicone dry and it would hold the rod in place no worries for the rest of eternity, but I would really like to have some grease there. Of course, in time the grease might heat up and expand with easily imaginable results, but heck, what have I got to lose?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Okay, done now.

    I didn't take my own advice and used a coil wire silicone boot I found lying about which fit perfectly. I cut it so it covers the push rod almost entirely and filled with grease inside. Pretty sure it will outlast the car now. Had the bell crank drilled out to 19 so I can use off the shelf bearings (10x19x5) but they proved to be not-so-much off the shelf bearings. Waiting for the two flanged ones due tomorrow.

    Here's two pictures of the result.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-photo-29-09-2016-4.04-pm.jpg   Rubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism-photo-29-09-2016-4.04-pm-2.jpg  
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 29th September 2016 at 06:08 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    The silicone coil wire boot is a good choice, looks great!

    Some strengthening ribs going on there

  21. #21
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    Buggered if I can find a spring in the clutch bits I have. Is the rod threaded?

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Nah. It's just a simple 5cm steel rod with round ends.

    My car doesn't have a spring, the Si wreck didn't have one. From the diagrams it looks like it goes somewhere around the end of the cable where I see no need for it anyway.

    Well, the silicone boot was collecting dust forgotten in a box, so it was about time it earned its (long) keep, I guess. We'll see if all that dust collecting was worth it.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 30th September 2016 at 11:23 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  23. #23
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    These are the bits I have left. The fixed mount on the gearbox and the rubber stopper on the cable are already on the car.

    I'm guessing these isn't a genuine solution as the rod is threaded and looks like an exhaust stud with rounded ends. The rubber parts are broken and there are 2 nuts which were all in line on the end of the cable. There is also a small semi circular plastic piece that sat inside the cup part I only found as I was cleaning out the old grease covering it. I think the large washer might be a ring in. The arm itself has the 2 rubber bushes and large bolt in place all in good condition.

    I guess I need to source a few bits. If yours doesn't have a spring either is that something that differs with the BE1 setup on series 1 or are they both just bastardized setups?


  24. #24
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    Default Rubber bellow for 205GTI (early) clutch mechanism

    That all looks pretty std except for the improvised rod. And definitely no spring on the 205 BE1 the other cars 309, 405 etc may have needed it due to pedal differences maybe? My cable on Little White was packed with all sorts of washers and just not adjusted properly.

    I have a spare rod and spare cable washer pack and I think I've got a spare new complete cable if you need something let me know.
    cheers Craig

  25. #25
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    Yes please Craig. I will send you a PM. It's interesting that the diagram in post 9 shows some sort of spring over the bolt (8).

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