504 trans cooler.
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Default 504 trans cooler.

    I am about to replace the damaged fan on my 504.
    It will be necessary to remove the radiator, I need to know the size of the copper sealing washers [ two diameters] on the two trans cooler banjo bolts. The banjo bolts are stepped therefore needing the two different dia. washers.
    In preparation for the job I would like to have the washers ready.

    I have been given three fans to choose from. All different diameters, ranging from 13" up to 14.5". The original damaged fan looks to be fractionally larger. I will be fitting the larger donated fan.

    I have been told that Peugeot had available a black plastic blade? I've never seen one.

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Can't help with Washers.

    But I can say I've never seen a black 504 fan blade. And have seen white ones in varying diameters and some radiators with fan cowls.

    And FWIW A Supercheap universal 300mm diameter electric fan fits on the engine side of radiator , is quieter than the 504 fan and works better in traffic and on hot days than the 504 clutched fan.

    Just be sure to fit a relay and set the fan to draw air through the radiator. Which involves reversing the electric fan blades and running the motor backwards.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    You still employ the in-radiator trans cooler ?

    I've always re-used those copper washers....no problem. Just put thm back exactly as they came off. In fact, I immediately put them back on the banjo fitting as soon as I undo it all, so as to not get confused about which side is facing where. I hold them in place temporarily with fine wire.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    Just be sure to fit a relay and set the fan to draw air through the radiator. Which involves reversing the electric fan blades and running the motor backwards.
    I do remember a mechanic one commenting about this kind of thing, saying that sucking is more efficient than blowing.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Can't help with Washers.

    But I can say I've never seen a black 504 fan blade. And have seen white ones in varying diameters and some radiators with fan cowls.

    And FWIW A Supercheap universal 300mm diameter electric fan fits on the engine side of radiator , is quieter than the 504 fan and works better in traffic and on hot days than the 504 clutched fan.

    Just be sure to fit a relay and set the fan to draw air through the radiator. Which involves reversing the electric fan blades and running the motor backwards.
    Robmac,
    My brekky coffee fix hasn't kicked in yet. [I]"reversing the fan blades and running the motor backwards" ? Is it necessary to run the fan motor backwards. Wouldn't just reversing the blades do the same thing?

    I had contemplated an electric fan ex air con, by simply feeding 12v via the standard sender in the bottom of the radiator. Original carbon brush removed.
    Where would the suggested relay fit in with the wiring for this?

    Drawing air through the radiator makes sense, mine has a cowl.

    I agree with you re the black plastic fan. My source has suggested they were fitted to prevent degradation due to sunlight?

    All the above drama has been caused by an original owner locking the fan clutch by spot brazing the two halves together!
    Then I snapped off a blade by turning the engine via the fan.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Robmac,
    My brekky coffee fix hasn't kicked in yet. [I]"reversing the fan blades and running the motor backwards" ? Is it necessary to run the fan motor backwards. Wouldn't just reversing the blades do the same thing?

    I had contemplated an electric fan ex air con, by simply feeding 12v via the standard sender in the bottom of the radiator. Original carbon brush removed.
    Where would the suggested relay fit in with the wiring for this?

    Drawing air through the radiator makes sense, mine has a cowl.

    I agree with you re the black plastic fan. My source has suggested they were fitted to prevent degradation due to sunlight?

    All the above drama has been caused by an original owner locking the fan clutch by spot brazing the two halves together!
    Then I snapped off a blade by turning the engine via the fan.
    Wildy, you need a relay to switch the electric fan, it draws around 8 amps and the thermo switch switch is rated around 1 amp.

    The instructions with the fan say to swap the fan blades and the motor direction. And after observing the action of the reversed blades the reason for reversing the motor is self evident.

    The relay sits neatly next to battery and if you obtain the type with an attached fuse the load supply terminal connects straight to the battery. And the fan black wire to the switched load terminal. The old fan clutch wire hooks to coil and the other side of the coil is grounded.

    About 20 mins in all to rewire.

    I didn't poke holes in the fins for fan mounting as the supplied kit suggests. It is easy to make some right angle brackets which pick up the captive nuts in the vertical sides of the radiator. And makes a neater install.

    Can't you just anneal the copper washers on the stove burner ?

    Edit: and if you still have the ancient 504 alternator , an electric fan running , will drag the voltmeter into the extreme left of the red section, unless the engine is doing 3000 + Rpm.

    Next project is to fit a decent alternator. Fortunately quite easy.

    Breaking the fan blades has started a chain reaction.
    Last edited by robmac; 17th September 2016 at 01:30 PM.
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    i'm not sure if all those slim universal fans are doing the job, and not always is it possible to turn over the blades. if at all buy a sucking type fan at the first place.
    i would go for a fan from another car, which is known to do the job.
    maybe it's irrelevant for you, but in my 505 i installed a mazda 626 fan with a cowling, after cutting the water pump shaft almost to the pulley.
    504 trans cooler.-img_0503.jpg

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    i'm not sure if all those slim universal fans are doing the job, and not always is it possible to turn over the blades. if at all buy a sucking type fan at the first place.
    i would go for a fan from another car, which is known to do the job.
    maybe it's irrelevant for you, but in my 505 i installed a mazda 626 fan with a cowling, after cutting the water pump shaft almost to the pulley.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The SCA fan coped Ok on my 2L engined 404.

    So I'd think it would be Ok on 2L 504.

    Remember the Victorian climate and weather is quite different to Egypt.

    This what I used.

    http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Pro...nuFrom=1021595

    You could use the 14 inch variety , if it fits.
    Last edited by robmac; 17th September 2016 at 05:51 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    Remember the Victorian climate and weather is quite different to Egypt.
    how did you know that my great great ancestors did use to live in egypt?

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    how did you know that my great great ancestors did use to live in egypt?
    Oops, , my error.

    Honest mistake with the location.
    Last edited by robmac; 17th September 2016 at 06:52 PM.
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Robmac,
    Could you possibly do me a rough sketch of the wiring to the relay numbers, then to the fan. A 30 amp relay with fuse attached would be OK ?
    Your directions..The old fan clutch wire connects to the coil, the other side of the coil is grounded ?
    By the "coil" do you mean the fan motor?

    I did anneal the copper washers previously, they may not like it again. Got some washers today from my parts guys. I got the measurements from the Factory parts book. Typical French, one size is 14.2 mm. The other 15.3 mm !
    I had to settle for 14 and 15 mm. Fingers crossed.

    I hope that my 40 amp Bosch would be up to the job if I go down the electric fan path. [3000 rpm? I don't think I do that many in a week!]

    Oh, I think I may have missed "Soopers" sale on fans.

    2pac,
    I think all of our ancestors came from Egypt or nearby?
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 17th September 2016 at 08:42 PM. Reason: dotting the T's crossing the I's

  11. #11
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    85 and 86 terminals: one to the body, the other one to the wire that goes to the fan clutch.
    87 and 30 terminals: one to the battery +, the other one to the fan + terminal.
    i don't think 40 amps alternator will be any good for an electric fan.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post

    All the above drama has been caused by an original owner locking the fan clutch by spot brazing the two halves together!
    Then I snapped off a blade by turning the engine via the fan.
    That was actually a bit of serendipity in disguise ! Those original fan blades get brittle with age and come off, sometimes ruining the radiator. When yours was younger it would not have broken. I used to turn over the motor of my old 504 by the fan blades all the time....when the car was between the ages of 9 and 15.

    We had a member here named Mud (which was his number plate) who did a thread about fitting a new radiator to his 504, and it was only needed because the fan blade disintegrated and ruined a very nice radiator. I knew the previous owner and that car was probably the most looked-after and original car in Queensland. It was simply age and heat that caused the blades to become brittle.
    Last edited by Beano; 19th September 2016 at 04:44 PM.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Robmac,
    Could you possibly do me a rough sketch of the wiring to the relay numbers, then to the fan. A 30 amp relay with fuse attached would be OK ?
    Your directions..The old fan clutch wire connects to the coil, the other side of the coil is grounded ?
    By the "coil" do you mean the fan motor?

    I did anneal the copper washers previously, they may not like it again. Got some washers today from my parts guys. I got the measurements from the Factory parts book. Typical French, one size is 14.2 mm. The other 15.3 mm !
    I had to settle for 14 and 15 mm. Fingers crossed.

    I hope that my 40 amp Bosch would be up to the job if I go down the electric fan path. [3000 rpm? I don't think I do that many in a week!]

    Oh, I think I may have missed "Soopers" sale on fans.

    2pac,
    I think all of our ancestors came from Egypt or nearby?


    Hi Wildy,

    Af file uploader won't cooperate either on Pdf file or JPG file, of correct sizes today. I've tried for the last 25 frustrating minutes to get the file into this post.

    So send me private message via Af messaging with your real email address and I'll attach the drawing in an email.

    A 40 amp bosch alternator should be fine. But the speed at which the 504 alternators are driven (relatively small crank pulley) will limit the current available at idle. I wouldn't fret about it 'tho

    I've alway found it easier to remake the wire from the thermo switch to the relay and run it around the front panel, with the headlight wiring.

    Extending it from Fan clutch position makes it difficult to route to the relay.

    cheers


    Rob504 trans cooler.-thermo-fan-wiring.jpg


    Ok I think it's attached, OK now AF is back up 19/09 at 09:26
    Last edited by robmac; 19th September 2016 at 09:29 AM.
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  14. #14
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    Rob,
    We appear to have a data base error again - PMs may not work - admin is looking into the problem.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Hey...I still have the trans oil running through my radiator! I am picking up new copper washers this week so can let you know the part numbers.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Thanks to everyone who replied to my query. Robmac for his diagram etc.
    The story to date.. Have installed one of my donated fans, a tad smaller than the original.
    There was no need to remove the radiator. Drain the coolant. Release the top hose. Remove the radiator top support [brace?].
    Pull the rad forward. The 3 fan nuts are now accessible using a dogleg 10mm ring spanner. Have an extended magnet ready to catch nuts/washers !
    There is now enough room to remove the old fan.
    The old broken fan was a yellowed looking brittle plastic, the replacement was more white or TupperWare-ish.
    The job took me about 1 to 1.5 hours. Surprised myself.

    The method I used was a short cut, reminding me what our State Volvo Service Manager once told me that " a lazy mechanic will always find the easy way to do things". This after I found a simpler way to do a warranty job, saved them a few bob I suppose but nothing was forthcoming my way!

    Pug72,
    I have the washer part numbers, from my factory parts books. Anything you or others may need let me know.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Peter C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    The old broken fan was a yellowed looking brittle plastic, the replacement was more white or TupperWare-ish.
    As Beano said, old 504 fans often become brittle and anyone with a 504 would be wise to grip the the fan blades and do a flex test.

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