P504 sump removal - possible without removing engine?
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Thread: P504 sump removal - possible without removing engine?

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Pug72's Avatar
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    Default P504 sump removal - possible without removing engine?

    Hi all

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    After procrastinating at the beginning of last summer, I am now going to fit air con to my 1972 504. I have sourced a early 505 alloy sump and a double pulley for the crank.

    Now, can I remove and replace a 504 sump without removing the engine?

    Thanks heaps

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Yes...did it myself to a 504 I owned.

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    Ok great, thanks Beano.

    Now, any tricks to removing the crank nut? I am assuming it is going to be tight!

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    can be done, however you'll have to raise the engine with a jack in order to remove the lhd mounting leg, which hides one of the sump's bolts, and to make more space for the sump. lowering the anti roll bar may be necessary too.
    in the alloy sump, note that there are 4 inner bolts, ie- they are accesible only when the lower tray is out, and there's one long bolt at the front lhd corner.
    the biggest problem in the alloy sump is the 2 front nuts, which can be tightened only with a spanner and not with a socket, because they are in a recess, so it's very hard to do them without removing the radiator.

    as for the pulley nut- you can lock the crankshaft by sticking a piece of wood between it and the engine block.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    ^ All good advice. Support engine and gearbox at bellhousing. Probably easier to remove both engine mount alloy legs.


    For the crank nut, I'd recommend buying a tool which is basically a pair of vise grips with a chain between the two jaws. They are used for both this kind of work and holding/turning pipes.

    I bought one for $75 (Vise Grip brand) but you can get them for about $15 to $20 from Supercheap. Lesser quality, but how often are you going to use it ? Also the quality of the cheaper ones has improved in the last few years.

    P504 sump removal - possible without removing engine?-chain.jpg

    Drain cooling system, and take out radiator.

    Adjust grips, lock onto the outer circumference of crank pulley and allow the handle end to catch on some appropriate part in the engine bay....or better, a lump of wood you have put in there specially and placed against something else.

    Then use a big socket and bar with extension to undo nut. Do up later with a dab of Loktite.

    Don't hit the crank pulley with a hammer to take it off. If it needs persuasion, tap with a heavy piece of wood or something softer than steel. They are cast steel and don't bend....they crack. Lewin warned me about this years ago, but a couple of years later I got impatient and cracked a big chunk out of one.
    Last edited by Beano; 12th September 2016 at 08:33 PM.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I've never found them that tight.

    My rattle gun with 35mm(?) heavy duty hex socket has always worked.

    The recommended torque is a bit over 100 ft/lb from memory.
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    Take the sump off first the insert a block of wood towards the crankshaft to stop it turning and undo the nut remove pulley and revese proceedure to tighten up the nut with loctite.

  8. #8
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    No need to remove the radiator for the crank pulley.

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    Much easier job with radiator out 2pac just doesn't want to use new coolant.
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    In fact, it's a much easier job with the engine out. Which won't take that much longer on a 504. And then most of the job is from above the engine. And you are not working from underneath on your back.



    Blocks of wood inside an engine always worry me due the risk of contamination. As does fitting sumps from underneath with all crud from the engine bay ready to get in.
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    Thanks everyone for your advice.

    I'll try the rattle gun first on the crank nut. I have the 505 sump, double pulley and compressor currently on a truck so while I'm waiting for that, i need to source the sump gaskets, engine mounts (current ones are still original and might as well replace them while they are out) and the copper washers for the transmission oil cooler lines into the radiator.

    Once I get these, I'll get stuck into replacing the sump. I would prefer to do this work from underneath. I have ramps, a comfy mechanics creeper and under the bonnet of my 504 is spotless

    Cheers

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    i'm not sure, but you may need to get a different oil filter housing, in which the filter points to the rear, because that's how it is in all a/c cars that i've seen. don't know why, maybe if the filter points to the front there's no place for the compressor.
    soon i'm going to do this job too, i'll report.
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    hmmm, good point. I hope not! Has anyone got any pictures of a 505 sump with air compressor set up in a 504?

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug72 View Post
    hmmm, good point. I hope not! Has anyone got any pictures of a 505 sump with air compressor set up in a 504?
    I doubt there will be an issue. The compressor is well below the oil filter and doesn't use any part of the oil filter as a mounting bracket.

    But you would be well served to replace the hexagonal headed bolts on the compressor with socket head capscrews. Which are easier to tighten by holding them with a ball end hex key.

    The hex bolts are nightmare to access and tighten.
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    Surely one would be pulling the motor out to do this job properly, no shortcuts.

    You blokes are sounding more like ex-railway fitters everyday!!!
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    Surely one would be pulling the motor out to do this job properly, no shortcuts.

    You blokes are sounding more like ex-railway fitters everyday!!!
    In this case at least, you are not working less than 100m from firewall.

    And as said, I would pull the engine because I dislike grovelling under cars on my back
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    I also subscribe to the remove the engine to do it philosophy. It's not much fun removing an engine but I reckon it's even less fun to grovel around under the car trying to see what you're doing, do a proper job and not hurt yourself in the process.

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    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    you would be well served to replace the hexagonal headed bolts on the compressor with socket head capscrews. Which are easier to tighten by holding them with a ball end hex key.

    The hex bolts are nightmare to access and tighten.
    I second this. Had forgotten about what fun it was.

  19. #19
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    Ok thanks for the note for using socket head cap screws.

    Looking at it quickly just now, there isn't going to be much room in there once the compressor is mounted.

    Looks like the oil filter will be out of the way of the belt/pulleys hopefully.

    See attached pictures.

    I have searching the internet for an evaporator/under dash unit, and so far the best I can come up with is this from Speedy Air Spares

    Under dash 12V COOL ONLY with vented fascia: Speedy Air Spares

    It fits perfectly under the glove box and has an eyeball type vent that will hopefully push air to the driver. Ideally I would like to have a duct running off the unit to a vent near the steering column, but I am unable to locate an underdash unit that has the forward facing vents plus a side pipe to a separate vent.

    For the condenser I was thinking of this:

    Hot Rod Condenser with 12V Fan / Truck / Ute / Machinary / Fridge Vans MANY applications EXCELLENT CONDENSER.: Speedy Air Spares

    It fits perfectly next to the radiator but will mean I will have to cut out a fair bit of the reinforcing panel that sits behind the grill.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P504 sump removal - possible without removing engine?-img_2026.jpg   P504 sump removal - possible without removing engine?-img_2027.jpg  

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    If you fit face without the fan with around 50mm clearance from the grille panel you will have sufficient air flow. If you are keen you can make a scoop that draws air from beneath the bumper to flow into the gap.

    The under dash evaps can be fitted , central, above the plastic console by giving it trim and look much better and share cooling between driver and front passenger far better.

    The radio, if fitted can be moved downwards.
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    When you fit the air, put a switch across the fan sender on the bottom of the radiator so you can turn the fan on manually BEFORE a big hill or a traffic jam. It is easier to keep them cool than it is to cool them down once they are hot. I just put a double adapter type connector on each terminal and run 2 wires to a switch in the cabin. It may well be worth also fitting an electric fan in front of the condensor as well. It can be connected via a relay to the a/c clutch or the radiator sender. A 505 radiator or a VN Commodore one will be even better. There is info on here somewhere about doing this.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil s View Post
    When you fit the air, put a switch across the fan sender on the bottom of the radiator so you can turn the fan on manually BEFORE a big hill or a traffic jam. It is easier to keep them cool than it is to cool them down once they are hot. I just put a double adapter type connector on each terminal and run 2 wires to a switch in the cabin. It may well be worth also fitting an electric fan in front of the condensor as well. It can be connected via a relay to the a/c clutch or the radiator sender. A 505 radiator or a VN Commodore one will be even better. There is info on here somewhere about doing this.
    All you need is 2 amp diode. Between the compressor clutch feed and the magnetic fan hub. When air con clutch is engaged. The fan clutch is locked.

    The op has stated he intends to use a condenser/ fan unit to one side of the radiator.

    And yes, a radiator upgrade is a good idea.

    holden VL rb30 radiator into a 504?????????????
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  23. #23
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    Thanks everyone for your advice.

    I am not wanting to butcher my centre console so will stick to housing the under dash unit under the glove box.

    I'll see how the current radiator goes. It is has a brand new core which is only 6 months old, but if engine cooling is compromised by the addition of air con, I'll definitely upgrade to the Commodore VL Radiator.

    Thanks

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    In my 505 I installed a Valeo fan in front of the condensor, and a 2 stage temp sensor in the radiator, the same set-up as in factory a/c models. The fan gets a constant +ve, and has two earth wires, one closes when turning on the a/c, the other closes when the coolant temp reaches the second level.
    I think it's a mistake to let the radiator fan operate constantly when a/c is on, because the fan and the compressor together take too much power from the engine. Each one alone is at least 5 hp less...
    Last edited by 2pac; 17th September 2016 at 05:33 PM.
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2pac View Post
    In my 505 I installed a Valeo fan in front of the condensor, and a 2 stage temp sensor in the radiator, the same set-up as in factory a/c models. The fan gets a constant +ve, and has two earth wires, one closes when turning on the a/c, the other closes when the coolant fan reaches the second level.
    I think it's a mistake to let the radiator fan operate constantly when a/c is on, because the fan and the compressor together take too much power from the engine. Each one alone is at least 5 hp less...
    Ah yes, but the 505 has a much bigger radiator than the 504 . And has the condenser is mounted in front of the radiator. So the condensor fan will assist in small way to cool the radiator.

    And I'd make the observation that no electric fan is without an engine power penalty either. The alternator needs to supply the power.

    5hp seems a very generous estimate for an engine fan, especially looking at the relatively small area of the magnetic clutch on the 504.

    And remember if the car overheats, neither the engine nor the driver or passenger stay cool.
    Last edited by robmac; 14th September 2016 at 05:09 PM.
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