205GTI 122 vs 130 differences
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Thread: 205GTI 122 vs 130 differences

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! acf321's Avatar
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    Default 205GTI 122 vs 130 differences

    just on all this 205GTI hype, I was just reading about the differences in the 130hp versions versus the 122hp local post 92 versions. One article simply stated that 'post 92, the addition of a Catalytic converter, saw the power drop 8hp to 122bhp'. So if I am reading this correctly, does it then mean that without that cat, I would have 130bhp, OR are there other engine mods, such as CR, pistons, valves, F Inj settings and the like?

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    Has anybody tuned their 122bhp post '92 205GTI to 130bhp and was it as simple as an 'exhaust mod'?


    Obviously I have 122, and would like the full whack Euro style... interested in where it went.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    IIRC, 130hp version is Jetronic injection; 122hp is Motronic. So totally different ECU and no doubt different wiring. Others will know more, but I assume the Motronic had a range of different, more environmentally friendly tune settings than the earlier Jetronic to allow it to comply with stricter emissions rules.

    We got the 122hp version here from I think the end of 1990, and we obviously never got the 130hp version.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    130hp - 9.6:1, single pattern cam, L-Jetronic

    122hp - 9.2:1, dual pattern cam, 1.3 Motronic, cat

    cylinder heads are identical, the difference in CR is the dish in the piston

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Whats the story with the camshafts Pete?
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    What's a "dual pattern" cam? If you rebuilt the engine with higher compression pistons and the 130hp cam, could you get the extra power out of one of our engines, or would you need to change ECU as well?

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    A single pattern cam has the same profile on inlet and exhaust. In the case of the 122hp cam, the exhaust profile has less lift and duration than the inlet. Thus less overlap period etc.

    The conversion is pretty easy. Just skim 1mm off the head and regrind the cam. You'll have 10:1 and >130hp.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    My 130 hp 309 GTi goes a lot better than 122 hp 205s I've driven but I've had other 130 hp cars that weren't as good.
    The cam seems very good certainly keeps going harder the more you rev it. These motors are on the limit as far as compression goes
    and really need 98 or better to prevent pinging.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Not really Graham. They're on the limit as far as the standard advance curve goes. I've seen 8V's running 12:1 on 98 octane.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Yes, for the standard ignition as you say.

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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    They're on the limit as far as the standard advance curve goes.
    So - dumb question - to change the advance curve do you need to change the ECU?

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    No, not for the 130 hp. Ignition is controlled by an old style Bosch breakerless distributor.

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    Fellow Frogger! acf321's Avatar
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    Thanks, Pete, Graham, Richard and others .... Seems very simple then... for me to get 130+HP from my 122hp Aussie delivered engine. I need a cam (more on which one will be needed) and a skim (how many thou?). May I suggest that a nice set of races valves with some mild race porting might also find a few horses in the mix???

    I have a very very capable engine guy that 'made' 250hp from my 2.4 240Z engine a year or so ago. It was mostly in the valve grind, cam, and head. Of course, in that motor balancing was essential, as was 9000RPM.

    I want factory inlet and exhaust (which we all know is highly capable in OEM spec), but with a cam and mild head work should give me at least 130hp. Pardon my complete ignorance here, but it seems readily achievable?
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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    Graham said that you can change timing on the Jetronic engine with the distributor. But is that the case with the Motronic?


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    Richard, from what I read the timing is all ECU based and triggered from the crankshaft sensor, so the distributor is just distributing... nothing else.

    I think by the time that the DKZ came out a lot of ppl who were done tweaking the GTi's and in the UK it was only on the market for 12 months after the DKZ was introduced in mid '92... we had them a year earlier. So I don't think there would be a demand to look at tweaking the Motronic ECU. If you wanted to play with the engine tune then there were a number of after-market ECU's to support that.

    As far as Adam's GTi is concerned, perhaps just look at shaving the head/get the valve seats done and make sure it's running in top order. I don't think you would be losing too many BHP with the cat, it was more about the lower state of tune... especially with the DFZ which on release only had shit 91 octane on offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard W View Post
    Graham said that you can change timing on the Jetronic engine with the distributor. But is that the case with the Motronic?


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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You need to find a guru who can read/write the code for the Motronic chips. Then it's a simple matter of burning a new chip.
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    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    They also go A LOT better with the 3.94:1 cwp from a S1/S2.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    It's all academic to me now, but would you get much benefit from the cam and compression increase without a new chip? If someone worked out the chip no doubt there would be a few people who would want to gently bump up the power of a S3 while keeping it looking totally standard.
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    Although this isn't probably that relevant, F.R. Wilk use to have a couple of good sites up on tuning Porsche 944s and playing with the AFMs and ECUs. He used to sell chip upgrades and also had a Motronics chip 'decoder/editor' application.
    I think he has 'retired' now but his informational sites can still be found.

    www.thePro2DMEeditor.com - Motronic Map Editing Software - Tools for the Tune-It-Yourselfer...
    www.Motronic.ws** ?07** ?11 FR Wilk

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    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ng850 View Post
    Although this isn't probably that relevant, F.R. Wilk use to have a couple of good sites up on tuning Porsche 944s and playing with the AFMs and ECUs. He used to sell chip upgrades and also had a Motronics chip 'decoder/editor' application.
    I think he has 'retired' now but his informational sites can still be found.

    www.thePro2DMEeditor.com - Motronic Map Editing Software - Tools for the Tune-It-Yourselfer...
    www.Motronic.ws** ?07** ?11 FR Wilk
    Many years ago I sussed this out for the Motronic 1.3 on my Mi16. I had an eprom reader/programmer and an eprom emulator. A mate and I (he was a programmer conversant in machine code) reverse engineered the binary dump from the eprom, broke down the program and identified the ignition and fueling maps within the eprom. We had it to a point where you could have the emulator plugged in, and tune it on the fly. Did this for my motor and a couple of mates, haven't touched it since.

    Skim head, change the inlet cam wheel, remove the cat and remap to suit, and the 1.9 Mi16 went a treat. I imagine a similar treatment would yield similar results on the 8 valve...
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    If I had a really good Series 3, all I'd do is reco the head, including 3 angle cuts and light port work, 0.040" skim, in addition to a 3.94:1 cwp and Quaife diff (preventative maintenance really). The valve seat work (and area under the seats) is really quite agricultural in these engines. After skimming the head you need to repair the valve timing. The skimming process retards the cam timing. So you either have to fit an offset key or adjustable pulley to advance the timing back to it's correct position. These engine don't ping like Jetronic engines.

    I can put a 130hp profile onto a 122hp cam if desired, but you'll notice the difference in overlap and unless you have the compression at least 10:1, it doesn't really go any better. It's the compression change that really makes it jump as the cam profile is already relatively "fat".

    A blank 256 chip is approx. $10 from Jaycar. Another method is to burn the Mi16 fuel & ignition maps onto the 8V chip. This works because the 8V needs LESS ignition timing when you increase the CR.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    So there you go. Get yourself an Mi16 ECU, pull the chip out, replace in your Motronic, and you're done.
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    It's not that easy. The ECU faults because it can't find the knock sensor.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    Default 205GTI 122 vs 130 differences

    Interesting, I'm planning something similar, 130hp+ on Little White except that I have the Jetronic.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEyssens View Post
    Interesting, I'm planning something similar, 130hp+ on Little White except that I have the Jetronic.
    Being a DFZ it's a bit harder but I have a tried and proven formula.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts CEyssens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Being a DFZ it's a bit harder but I have a tried and proven formula.
    Sounds good Peter, I've read some of your posts on this, which have been useful.
    I'm thinking of using a D6B style setup in one car and the other going a bit further by modifying the original DFZ and pushing it a bit more.
    What have you found are the practical limits of the DFZ/jetronic?
    Plan in mind is compression up, valve & head work, one of your cams, re-curved distributor, pump 98 fuel.

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