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    Default mi16 head

    Hi to all Peugeot nuts.
    Pretty good site you have got here.
    I have had the fortune to be voluteered to help someone remove the head of his mi16 (because I did my 504 in January). Now after a small amount of swearing and cussing (5 days worth) the thing is off, one head bolt was loose and the gasket was blown. I measured the thickness of the head and it measures 131.4mm. The Haynes manual gives a minimum thickness of 131.8, even running the thicker head gasket will not make up the .4mm discrepancy.
    Any advice about how overcome this? Can the head be built up?, does it need to be fixed or can I bolt it back on?.
    Any advice greatfully considered

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    I also noticed one of your members has my name and surname, how can this be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    Hi to all Peugeot nuts.
    Pretty good site you have got here.
    I have had the fortune to be voluteered to help someone remove the head of his mi16 (because I did my 504 in January). Now after a small amount of swearing and cussing (5 days worth) the thing is off, one head bolt was loose and the gasket was blown. I measured the thickness of the head and it measures 131.4mm. The Haynes manual gives a minimum thickness of 131.8, even running the thicker head gasket will not make up the .4mm discrepancy.
    Any advice about how overcome this? Can the head be built up?, does it need to be fixed or can I bolt it back on?.
    Any advice greatfully considered

    I also noticed one of your members has my name and surname, how can this be?
    I know of member who has removed 0.5mm without problems, so 0.4mm shouldn't be an issue. I'd still use the std. gasket. Every bit of compression on an Mi16 is vital.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    I know of member who has removed 0.5mm without problems, so 0.4mm shouldn't be an issue. I'd still use the std. gasket. Every bit of compression on an Mi16 is vital.
    Thanks Peter, even though the car used to run as it is, I was worried that skimming a little more off by getting the head faced, would start pistons and valves banging into each other.
    I have since found out there are people around who will make a head gasket (I 'll have a thick one please) at a reasonable cost. Does your friend run a standard gasket?
    The other problem I have is that the loose head bolt was loose because the thread in the block is stripped. I know a helicoil can be used and I will get one done when I find a mobile mechanic who can go to the car and do it.
    I have also been told the head bolts protude through the block and a nut can be fitted to the end of the bolt. I will not see the car again until after Easter so I cannot have a look until then.
    Anyone have any experience with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    Thanks Peter, even though the car used to run as it is, I was worried that skimming a little more off by getting the head faced, would start pistons and valves banging into each other.
    I have since found out there are people around who will make a head gasket (I 'll have a thick one please) at a reasonable cost. Does your friend run a standard gasket?
    The other problem I have is that the loose head bolt was loose because the thread in the block is stripped. I know a helicoil can be used and I will get one done when I find a mobile mechanic who can go to the car and do it.
    I have also been told the head bolts protude through the block and a nut can be fitted to the end of the bolt. I will not see the car again until after Easter so I cannot have a look until then.
    Anyone have any experience with this?
    He runs a std. 1.42mm gasket. I'll be keen to here how you go with the helicoil and/or nut. Most of the holes are through, but some are partially blind. I have a block with 3 stripped holes which I don't want to have to scrap.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    He runs a std. 1.42mm gasket. I'll be keen to here how you go with the helicoil and/or nut. Most of the holes are through, but some are partially blind. I have a block with 3 stripped holes which I don't want to have to scrap.

    i have had heads heli-coiled in the past and i had a 403 block heli-coiled as well quite a few years ago

    never had any trouble with any of them but they did find the block a little hard as the thread is a fair way down

    i also have to think about getting a PRV block heli-coiled in a couple of spots as well so it will be interesting to hear how they go with this one

    the PRV block also has open head bolt holes
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    He runs a std. 1.42mm gasket. I'll be keen to here how you go with the helicoil and/or nut. Most of the holes are through, but some are partially blind. I have a block with 3 stripped holes which I don't want to have to scrap.
    I have had a look at the block, the stripped thread is one of the two blind holes (#1 exhaust) which means I will not be able to fit a nut on the end of the bolt (grrrr). It looks like there is enough room to fit nuts on the others though (more grrr).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i have had heads heli-coiled in the past and i had a 403 block heli-coiled as well quite a few years ago

    never had any trouble with any of them but they did find the block a little hard as the thread is a fair way down

    i also have to think about getting a PRV block heli-coiled in a couple of spots as well so it will be interesting to hear how they go with this one

    the PRV block also has open head bolt holes
    Thanks for your help too Pugrambo.
    When you had your block heli-coiled, was it still in the car?.The reason I ask is this motor is still in the car and looking at the postion of the thread (#1 exhaust) it will be very difficult to drill and tap given the rearward angle of the engine and the proximity of the firewall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    Thanks for your help too Pugrambo.
    When you had your block heli-coiled, was it still in the car?.The reason I ask is this motor is still in the car and looking at the postion of the thread (#1 exhaust) it will be very difficult to drill and tap given the rearward angle of the engine and the proximity of the firewall.
    Now you've gone this far, you should really drop the block/gearbox out. It might sound difficult and a lot more work, but it will be a lot easier. Put the car on stands (you need 600mm clearance under the radiator), pull the driveshafts out then lower the block/gearbox to the floor. Don't forget to drain the gearbox oil first.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    Thanks for your help too Pugrambo.
    When you had your block heli-coiled, was it still in the car?.The reason I ask is this motor is still in the car and looking at the postion of the thread (#1 exhaust) it will be very difficult to drill and tap given the rearward angle of the engine and the proximity of the firewall.

    i took the block out even though the bloke said he could do it in there just to make it a bit easier

    and it was my peace of mind that the hole was cleaned out properly as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i took the block out even though the bloke said he could do it in there just to make it a bit easier

    and it was my peace of mind that the hole was cleaned out properly as well
    I was hoping niether of you would say that.

    Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    I was hoping niether of you would say that.

    Thanks again
    The saaaaga continues;

    I have had the head in for a crack test, repair and facing.
    The head is corroded around all of the combustion chambers but can be repaired. The problem now is that after the welding has been done, they estimate they will have to shave approx 0.5mm off the head to get a clean surface.
    This will mean the head will be about 130.9mm thick or nearly 1mm thinner that the 131.8 minimum thickness stated in the Haynes manual.
    Looking at the head, the inlet valves are very close to flush with the head surface now and will protude past the head surface if another 0.5mm is taken off.
    The thicker gasket is only 0.2mm thicker than the standard gasket (1.2 & 1.4mm) by my calculations I would need a gasket about 2.0mm thick.

    I think I am in the proverbial here.

    They say the head looks like it has been off fairly recently, shaved and put back on. They also say if the head had been repaired before it was shaved, it would still be servicable and that whoever did this is an idiot and has f***** this head up well and truly.

    Let this be a lesson to everybody travelling to, or living in WA.
    The tap water here is full of stuff that promotes corrosion in aluminium and SHOULD NOT BE USED IN THE COOLING SYSTEM!.
    If you need to top up your radiator and cannot get the correct coolent (donít mix your coolentís either), bottled, distilled water is readily avaliable everywhere.

    Anybody got a decent second hand head ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    The saaaaga continues;

    I have had the head in for a crack test, repair and facing.
    The head is corroded around all of the combustion chambers but can be repaired. The problem now is that after the welding has been done, they estimate they will have to shave approx 0.5mm off the head to get a clean surface.
    This will mean the head will be about 130.9mm thick or nearly 1mm thinner that the 131.8 minimum thickness stated in the Haynes manual.
    Looking at the head, the inlet valves are very close to flush with the head surface now and will protude past the head surface if another 0.5mm is taken off.
    The thicker gasket is only 0.2mm thicker than the standard gasket (1.2 & 1.4mm) by my calculations I would need a gasket about 2.0mm thick.

    I think I am in the proverbial here.

    They say the head looks like it has been off fairly recently, shaved and put back on. They also say if the head had been repaired before it was shaved, it would still be servicable and that whoever did this is an idiot and has f***** this head up well and truly.

    Let this be a lesson to everybody travelling to, or living in WA.
    The tap water here is full of stuff that promotes corrosion in aluminium and SHOULD NOT BE USED IN THE COOLING SYSTEM!.
    If you need to top up your radiator and cannot get the correct coolent (donít mix your coolentís either), bottled, distilled water is readily avaliable everywhere.

    Anybody got a decent second hand head ?
    I wouldn't trash the head just yet. Don't the valves sit inside the bore and go down at an angle? In which case protusion into the bore doesn't really matter. It may still be OK with a std. head gasket but you'd have to check you piston to valve clearances. The std. clearances are 0.190" from memory, and given a save limit of 0.080", the 0.040" off the head won't be a problem. Just check them first.

    The extra compression won't be an issue. On the UK engines, the pistons sit 1.3mm higher up the bore, to give 10.4:1. You're really just making one of those engines a different way.

    The only issue I can see is the thickness of the head face and whether it will be rigid enough. It will probably be OK under normal operating conditions but an over heat might warp it.

    If all is lost, you might be better looking for a second hand engine given your other dramas. Even one from a later 2L Mi16 or S16.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Also, if there is that much corrosion around the head, the liner seats are going to be a time bomb. There isn't much flow around #1 liner and you will have a lot of corrosion around the liner seat, in the block. It's a dead area that festers away if coolant is poor. I hope you've got the liners clamped down with the old head bolts (you need new ones anyway). If you disturb the liners it will probably be the end for that block.
    Last edited by PeterT; 21st April 2004 at 09:43 AM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Also, if there is that much corrosion around the head, the liner seats are going to be a time bomb. There isn't much flow around #1 liner and you will have a lot of corrosion around the liner seat, in the block. It's a dead area that festers away if coolant is poor. I hope you've got the liners clamped down with the old head bolts (you need new ones anyway). If you disturb the liners it will probably be the end for that block.
    Yes I have the liners clamped down with a nice straight bit of Western Australian hardwood bolted diagonally across the block.
    All of the head bolts were under the maximum recommended length (176.5mm).
    I haven't really looked into the block yet but you are right, if the head is corroded the block has to be as well. When we get the block out I will have a good look.

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    You can't re-use the bolds. In the torque sequence they are taken past their yeild point, or the elastic limit. They thus stay stretched. I've tried to re-use them but they break, usually below the deck. You might get away with it but at $70 for a new set it's not worth the risk.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    I wouldn't trash the head just yet. Don't the valves sit inside the bore and go down at an angle? In which case protusion into the bore doesn't really matter. It may still be OK with a std. head gasket but you'd have to check you piston to valve clearances. The std. clearances are 0.190" from memory, and given a save limit of 0.080", the 0.040" off the head won't be a problem. Just check them first.

    The extra compression won't be an issue. On the UK engines, the pistons sit 1.3mm higher up the bore, to give 10.4:1. You're really just making one of those engines a different way.

    The only issue I can see is the thickness of the head face and whether it will be rigid enough. It will probably be OK under normal operating conditions but an over heat might warp it.

    If all is lost, you might be better looking for a second hand engine given your other dramas. Even one from a later 2L Mi16 or S16.
    Yes you are right about the valves, the guy at the head shop (the headmaster??) seemed worried about this.
    The clearances you are talking about are in inches aren't they?
    I get confused with all of these metric/imperial measuring systems (and threads)
    I have been told the Mi16 sold in very small numbers in WA and that the eastern states is the best place to source parts from
    Approx how much does a second hand engine go for? (ballpark figures)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    You can't re-use the bolds. In the torque sequence they are taken past their yeild point, or the elastic limit. They thus stay stretched. I've tried to re-use them but they break, usually below the deck. You might get away with it but at $70 for a new set it's not worth the risk.
    Ohh OK its new bolts then, one of them was right on the limit anyways.

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    Yes, those measurement were in inches. Sorry, being a product of the sixties I tend to use both.

    A bare engine (no ancilliaries or gearbox) goes for $2-2.5K, if you can find one.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Yes, those measurement were in inches. Sorry, being a product of the sixties I tend to use both.

    A bare engine (no ancilliaries or gearbox) goes for $2-2.5K, if you can find one.
    OK thanks, during my meaderings through this site I noticed someone was wrecking an Mi16, I will try and find it again and see what is left.

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    for future reference 40thou in round figures is close to 1mm
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    Also, if there is that much corrosion around the head, the liner seats are going to be a time bomb. There isn't much flow around #1 liner and you will have a lot of corrosion around the liner seat, in the block. It's a dead area that festers away if coolant is poor. I hope you've got the liners clamped down with the old head bolts (you need new ones anyway). If you disturb the liners it will probably be the end for that block.
    I feel much better about the head now, I have tracked down the guy who makes head gaskets.
    He can supply gaskets from 1.4 to 2.3mm thick for about $140.00, which is just dandy for me if the valve clearances are going to be a problem.

    Now I am concerned about the block, I should have it out over the weekend.

    Will keep you posted

    Thanks again for all of your help

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    I feel much better about the head now, I have tracked down the guy who makes head gaskets.
    He can supply gaskets from 1.4 to 2.3mm thick for about $140.00, which is just dandy for me if the valve clearances are going to be a problem.

    Now I am concerned about the block, I should have it out over the weekend.

    Will keep you posted

    Thanks again for all of your help
    Stuck on the LH ball joint, any tips/ideas how to get it to release.
    I have tried heat and a bit of leverage.
    I think I need a ball joint separator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza
    Stuck on the LH ball joint, any tips/ideas how to get it to release.
    I have tried heat and a bit of leverage.
    I think I need a ball joint separator.
    You need to heat it quickly, so the outer expands before the inner. LPG won't do it fast enough. You need acetylene.

    Did you have a 2lb hammer (or bigger) behind it, whilst hitting it?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Regarding Helicoiling of blocks, I had to do this recently to my 1600 cc 403 motor. The head bolt snapped whilst in use, don't know when but it meant that it blew a head gasket when it was being driven hard in a rally.
    I managed to stuff up the removal of the remaining part of the bolt (screw extractor hole went off centre and the drilling of the hole hardened the steel so no drill would then touch it.
    The engine was removed (arrgh!) and taken over to Colin Hagues workshop where it was placed on a milling machine. Measurements were taken of the other bolt holes so the exact location of the damaged hole was known and then it was drilled out. Masonry bits were used for this as everything else was immediately blunted!!
    Apon removal the hole was drilled to 12.5 mm and a helicoil inserted. Yes, It is very important that this is done in the right position and exactly straight, the milling machine ensured that this was the case.
    Even so I had to install this bolt first when fitting the head in order to get the thread to take.
    All in all a hell of a lot of work and I certainly didn't want to scrap the specially machined (for 404 liners) block.


    Graham Wallis

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    You can't re-use the bolds. In the torque sequence they are taken past their yeild point, or the elastic limit. They thus stay stretched. I've tried to re-use them but they break, usually below the deck. You might get away with it but at $70 for a new set it's not worth the risk.

    The bolts for the XN6 motor are $32 each and Peugeot had three only in stock when I checked. It seems that people reuse the bolts and buy new ones only when they snap!
    I cut my losses and changed to an early block!
    Graham Wallis

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