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Thread: The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...

  1. #76
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    All engines have niggles that show when new or over time, and the makers fix them in subsequent versions. This is true of the family of PSA engines developed from the EP6DT. The pumps and chains and other things listed on sites have all been redesigned. The new EB range of PSA engines also has direct injection.

    So Stuey's question really comes down to whether one should buy a direct-injected engine, because this is at the root of the crudded valves. The problem is worsened by turbocharging.

    Most new engines are direct injected and many are turbocharged. All Euro makes, because of the strict emission laws and the desire to get more from smaller engines. Asian makers are following this design trend. They need to sell into advanced countries too. There are pressures against diesels, that are simply nonsense unless the replacement is cleaner.

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    So port cleaning is going to become a way of life again, just as decokes and valve grinds once were. There will likely be a move to make the ports more accessible and build cheaper tools as it becomes more common. I think that means will be developed to reduce oil vapour too. At present the rules require any unsuppressed vapour to be burnt.

    It isn't directly related, but PSA diesel owners have long become used to exhaust filter regeneration. The papers are running stories about urban-driving Toyota owners and their lawyers who have just discovered this inconvenient fact of modern motoring.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    It isn't directly related, but PSA diesel owners have long become used to exhaust filter regeneration. The papers are running stories about urban-driving Toyota owners and their lawyers who have just discovered this inconvenient fact of modern motoring.
    In the article https://www.caradvice.com.au/713664/...on-toyota-dpf/ they suggest "Toyota contacted owners offering to clean or replace the DPF in affected vehicles, and retro-fit a manual regeneration switch...." Is fitting a manual switch in our chariots a realistic proposition?

  3. #78
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    I know of no way except a forced regeneration using Diagbox. I'd rather have an idiot lih\ght teling me when it's happening.

    Regeneration is a very hot process with an extremely unpleasant discharge from the exhaust. PSA make it happen on the open road. You wouldn't want it happening near people, or on grass, or with a car parked close behind. The C5 exhaust points down. I think the various makers would be wary of a simple manual switch because of the law suit risk.
    dmccurtayne, David S and 85Fuego like this.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Owners of cars with this engine; would you buy another? Or is the extra hassle worth it? I'm bound to be asked by colleagues, as the 'Euro car guy'.
    I'm on my third car with a THP engine (I still own two of them) and I've had no dramas with them. There's been no "extra hassle".
    Regards,

    Simon

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  5. #80
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    What about the extra hassle of cleaning the valves and ports? Or is that something you don't see because it is performed by routine dealer (or other) servicing - so I should have written 'hassle or cost'.
    Last edited by Stuey; 29th December 2018 at 04:54 PM.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    It's just a service item at about 50,000 km for the PSA 1.6 engine. I don't know how long the 3 pot EB series engines will go for.

    Ford, Mazda, Toyota, Audi, Merc, Hyundai, take your pick, are all using direct injection in current engines. The interval is shorter when there is oil vapour in the induction system, ie, turbo bearings.

    Solvent sprays are used regularly to minimise the problem, Subaru, Nulon, etc. All these engines have oil vapour traps of varying efficiency.

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    I admit, I didn't know this was a significant problem with all DI engines and I guess that was my point, albeit misinformed. I thought the PSA engine was more prone to the issue. I'd assume the proper service routine (which I understand involves manual cleaning after a fair bit of dismantling) is akin in cost to, say, a timing belt job. Would that be ballpark correct?

    I'm in no way running down these cars and that's not my point. I'm just trying to be informed because I'm always asked about second hand car buys. If someone says, oh great no timing belts to change, but there's another equally costly service requirement, then it'd be good to know.


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    The DS3 took all day. Actually a bit in one afternoon, a soak in solvent, and the rest next morning; 6 to 7 hours of labour. A great deal of that time was dismantling and refitting the inlet manifold and injectors and sundry connections which in that small car are [email protected]#$% hard to get at. I didn't have the dealers' tool, or a walnut blast, so it was scraped with a sharp tool, say 3 hours. The blaster would have been quicker at this stage.

    Makers have to consider access in future because it is a service item. PSA engines are under that overhanging windscreen with the inlet at the back. Compare that with the access VAG gives. As engines go back to chains or wet belts this job is replacing the belt change. I'd be happier if PSA would bring the engine forward and put the exhaust at the back, but this does mean an inaccessible turbo as in the 2.0 HDI engines.
    2010_citroen_ds3_dsport-red.jpg

    The large manifold is under and behind the air cleaner visible in the photo. All connections and fixings are by feel, not sight. The battery is removed to get the manifold out. Once off a mirror is needed to see what you are doing.
    Last edited by seasink; 29th December 2018 at 07:35 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #84
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    Cheers, good info there, thanks.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    My recollection is that VAG DPFs, EGR and now GPF (I assume) are situated at the back which also makes life difficult.
    Bring back the N-S engine?.


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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    What about the extra hassle of cleaning the valves and ports? Or is that something you don't see because it is performed by routine dealer (or other) servicing - so I should have written 'hassle or cost'.
    Sorry - I should have said 4th THP engine - I forgot to include the 308.

    By the time I sold the 207 GTi at 92k and 7 yrs it was probably requiring inlet valve deposit cleaning as it was a bit cantankerous when it was cold, but it still drove ok when warmed up. It also never suffered HPFP issues, timing chain issues or turbo oil line leaks, which seems to afflict lots of the "early" THP engines. Perhaps I was really lucky.

    The DS3 has received routine cleaning via a spray can, by the dealer and then myself, and after 7.5 yrs still seems happy. It would probably benefit from a scrubbing of the inlet valves, but it's not exhibiting any symptoms that make me want to do it in the near term.

    The 208 GTi never received any extra love by the dealer (so no cleaning spray, etc.) and seemed to drive the same from the day I bought it to the day I sold it 4 yrs later. It, I understand, has a heavily revised PCV system compared to the 207 GTi and the DS3. To be fair it only had 55k on it (I think) when I sold it.

    I'm not dismissing the issues, I'm just happy they haven't happened to my cars
    Regards,

    Simon

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  12. #87
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    Now have my RCZ. It is the RCZ Mk II THP200 GT six-speed manual. Only 700 RCZ's were ever sold in Australia from a six year production run of only 68,000 units. The double bubble glass rear window became too expensive. Only production car in the world with a double-bubble roof. Built at the Magna factory in Austria. 200 refers to 200 bhp, however stock RCZ's in the UK, where there are lots of them, consistently give 215-225 bhp readings. It is one powerful beastie engine. Long live the Prince.

    This is interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McVxxxfN5-s

    What a glorious car to drive. A bit of this, and a bit of that. Tyres are 235/40/R19, and the wheel design scoops air onto the brake rotors for cooling.

    So, as for the French Tart, SA459 was performed.

    OK, car serviced for it's first time, with me.I did the service.


    Post intercooler pipe? I did it. (drum roll).

    Removed the sensor located there. After 40,000 klicks it was OK, but I cleaned it with CRC Contact Cleaner spray. That's what they do in professional service places.

    OK - started the THP200 and started to spray into hole left by sensor. Engine became cranky and attempted to stall. So I reduced the pressure from the can and it grumbled away happily? In the dealerships, another person is keeping revs at 2,000.

    Emptied half can and let it sit for ten minutes. Started with effort, and continued to spray the remains of the can. Grumbly, spluttery Prince engine.

    Left alone for ten minutes, while I changed the air (K&N) and pollen filter.

    Replaced post intercooler sensor and started engine. Cranked over for a moment and barked into life. I revved the engine and white smoke erupted from the exhaust and settled down. Ha, I thought. SA459 has done it's job.

    Got a red engine fault light up on the dials, as I expected. So got my diagnosis tool and found two codes. P this, and P that.
    At this time with my experience using SA459, I didn't record them this time. Anyhow, I reset the codes to zero, and wahoo the engine kicked into life with no red engine light.

    Took it for a spin down a winding road and dragged off a Toyota for fun. 6,000 rpm.

    No problems and I know it did it's work.

    SA459 recommended.

    Trivia:

    Australia is the 2nd largest buyer of Subarus after Japan. They are forkin' everywhere!
    Subi engines (boxer) are prone for sludge, so they created this product for their engines. But as mechanics move from shop to shop, the secrets of SA459 are told in Oz.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...-peugeot-rcz-4094_49.jpg  
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    Last edited by 207cc Sport; 10th January 2019 at 01:14 PM. Reason: typos
    The French Tart… 207cc Sport THP150 and now a RCZ Mk2 THP200

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by 207cc Sport View Post
    and the wheel design scoops air onto the brake rotors for cooling.
    Wouldn't that require different wheel designs on the left and right sides of the car?
    Scotty

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    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

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  14. #89
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    I hear what you say. And you are right.

    So the wheels don't drag air in at all, but I found this:

    Discs with a diameter of 340mm and thickness of 32mm, are mounted on an aluminium hub. This contributes to the weight-saving and cooling performance due to exposure from the 19" wheels, derived from the Alcon racing experience, to providebrake durability and outstanding performance, so braking from 80mph to zero requires less than 61 metres.

    Or maybe thats why the car pulls to the right . . .
    The French Tart… 207cc Sport THP150 and now a RCZ Mk2 THP200

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by 207cc Sport View Post
    The double bubble glass rear window became too expensive.
    And this doesn't sound right. Before we bought our RCZ, I got a quote for a rear windscreen, out of interest, as I figured it would be expensive. They're not. Brand new aftermarket, in stock in Australia, $395. The bloke said that forming the screen was no different to forming any other screen, and they just needed the right mould, as per any other screen. He did note that it came in a thicker than usual box, though.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  16. #91
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    Well done on the price. Go figure.

    You'll find this interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVSLDLoIwrY

    Cheers.

    Do you miss your RCZ?
    The French Tart… 207cc Sport THP150 and now a RCZ Mk2 THP200

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by 207cc Sport View Post
    Well done on the price. Go figure.

    You'll find this interesting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVSLDLoIwrY

    Cheers.

    Do you miss your RCZ?

    Very interesting video, thanks for that! I hadn't seen that one before.

    Miss it? It's still in the garage. Doesn't get out much. It's just clicked over 10k km. The 406 is much nicer to drive.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  18. #93
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    I have noticed that SA459 prices have increased. The UK RCZ forum had never heard of the stuff, and now can't get their hands on enough of it.
    Last edited by 207cc Sport; 17th January 2019 at 11:28 AM.
    The French Tart… 207cc Sport THP150 and now a RCZ Mk2 THP200

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