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Thread: The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...

  1. #26
    Fellow Frogger! 207cc Sport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Hey, Simon Townsend, give some of us credit for knowing the state of current engine development.
    Awweeeee... Stuey...

    Looks to me that the current state of generation engine development, is actually engine degeneration development!



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  2. #27
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    Default The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...

    I have a Peugeot 508 1.6 petrol engine purchased new 2013 I have used BP 98 after 55,000km engine failed, because of carbon build up Peugeot flushed the engine out four weeks ago, starting to lose power, my question is where and how can I spray a cleaner in my engine? I have looked at engine diagrams of this engine but they don't have enough detail!


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    Last edited by qrbill; 26th December 2016 at 11:29 PM.

  3. #28
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    The black plastic box on the top of the engine behind the spark plugs & coils houses the crankcase ventilation oil separator. Most trapped oil drains back to the sump through vertical passages at the back of the engine. It has two air vent outlets.

    The near side one heads straight to the turbo inlet. If you slip it off near the sensor you may see oil, but probably won't.

    On the driver's side there is a hose coming off the rear, which heads into the intake manifold plenum. This one probably is the source of valve clagging. People slip it off and spray Subaru cleaner and the like in there with the engine running. It may not work if the clag is heavy. See Youtube. The engine is used by Peugeot, Citroen and Mini.

  4. #29
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    The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...-prince-engine.jpg

    Hi seasink,

    For the last two years I have run a can of SA459 at every 5,000 klm oil change.

    Running as sweet as.

    After cleaning the intake valves DIY - refer opening post.Ongoing preventative measures. I bought 12 cans of SA459 from eBay in 2013, and run a can through at every oil change. They are all gone. Ordered two from eBay.

    When engine is hot, remove the breather pipe from the rear right hand side of the cam cover (refer pic above), and spray half of the can into this hose. Wait 15 minutes and then start the engine and empty the remaining contents of the can into the same hose with the engine running. Handy to have another person here to keep the revs up a bit.


    You may get a fault code, but I use my $20 Chinese cheapie to erase the code. I don't get any fault codes from this procedure now.
    Last edited by 207cc Sport; 27th December 2016 at 03:55 PM. Reason: typos. . .
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  5. #30
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    For info, the "official" procedure is to remove the intake pipe at the front clamp near the intercooler and introduce the cleaner while the engine is running at 2,500rpm.

    Then you stop the engine and wait for 15 mins and do this again.

    After this you change the engine oil and filter and take it for a drive.

    I'm also disappointed that you haven't used the term "Prince engine" once in your last post, 207cc.
    Regards,

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  6. #31
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    Well my procedure bypasses the intake sensor at the end of the post intercooler pipe. These sensors are very temperamental things, so I stay well clear of putting any solvents through them. The intake manifold air sensor, of a different design, seems to handle the strong solvents in SA459.

    OK you made me say it = BMW/PSA PRINCE ENGINE.

    Being an ex-IT Professional (30 years), by putting the 'P' word assists others who search Google, etc. . .
    Last edited by 207cc Sport; 27th December 2016 at 02:35 PM. Reason: typos. . .
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  7. #32
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    Ref: Delfin Variable Cam Phaser (VCP)
    This issue seems to plague the current new direct fuel injection petrol engines. Although I do not know the actual % of issues based on Google searches. Good available examples are the modern VWs, Peugeot BMW Prince in the BMW, Minis and PSA products and maybe others including Ecoboost. I have seen clues that engines fitted with cam phasers (computer controlled hydraulic cam advance and retard up to 70 degrees) seem to be a common configuration for these issues. Why does it not effect the direct injection Diesel engines, surely the EGR valve vents engine breather gases into the intake also? Maybe the diesel does not have cam phasers, therefore no internal leak issue. I notice the Prince engine seems to have a composite effect to the cam chain tension-er, cam phases and the variable intake valves control (where fitted) when the cam phaser transfer port seals in the forward cam journal develop an internal leak. This leak may and probably would spray a higher volume of oil mist within the engine which the EGR would carry into the intake valves. This also seems to be a issue on other BMW products (6 cylinder types). I have recently seen a two burned out, most probably owner arson, as a result of the repair cost (new cam-chains & head, labour etc). These BMWs were fitted with the VANOS and cam phasers ( the engine covers were melted from the intense heat exposing the cam system).There is infomation on changing the Mini Prince engines cam chain cassette system and seed blast cleaning of the inlet valves. I noticed a Russian YouTube showing the wear marks in the forward camshaft journal cam phaser transfer ports of a Prince engine. The first indication seems to be a cam chain rattle on startup, this as a result of low hydraulic pressure as it is internally leaking from maybe to forward cam journal transfer ports. The Ecoboost engine has a variable oil pump, maybe this gives a higher volume flow at start, but these too have developed strange sounds like air in the cam phaser. I would like to know if the recent PSA Prince engine have a redesigned and more robust sealing of the cam journal cam phaser transfer ports. EURO 6.1 requires these engine to maintain EPA performance levels over almost life of type, at least 250,000km (Euro Bosch petrol fuel injection has a design life at this figure.) How good is the current PSA Prince engines and have PSA addressed these issues?

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    Some interesting points there. One we can dismiss though is diesel EGR, where exhaust gases are recirculated over the maniold and valves. Any oil in a diesel combustion chamber combusts. All that is left is its ash.

    Crankcase blow by in the diesels is collected by a quite large oil separator (déshuileur) mounted on the side of the engine. In the RHH motor it drains back into the oil filler pipe, with a vent tube to the intake air.

  9. #34
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    They modified the crankcase oil separation/vent system in later versions of the engine. The main purpose seems to be the prevention of sludge formation from air moisture/vapour.
    The dreaded carbon build up on the intake valves...-ep6fdtx.jpg

  10. #35
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    Tizz true. 'P' engines from 2013 had big improvements on ERG handling.
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  11. #36
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    This EP that PSA cleverly poached off BMW is a lemon, nice way to piss people off.French logic! The world is coming to an end so no more V6s, no more flagship 6 series (while the Koreans do)just this horrible sounding unreliable engine.They have come out with a cleaning set up, granules, vacuum cleaner attachment and air blower.its a devil of a job.Band aid fix.

  12. #37
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    Direct petrol injection is a French invention! It goes back to the first aircraft engines. German military aircraft used it in the 1939-45 war, and it appeared in mass production cars in the 1950s. The Japanese developed the system and now every auto engine maker uses it, certainly Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, VAG, GM and Ford, as well as PSA and BMW. Don't blame the BMW collaboration, because PSA had earlier used the Mitsubishi injection system.

    Since direct injection means no petrol washing the inlet valves, they can clag if oil vapour gets to them, no matter what make.

    PS The acclaimed 3 cylinder EB series engines from PSA are also high pressure direct injected.
    Last edited by seasink; 8th January 2017 at 05:57 PM. Reason: ps

  13. #38
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    PSA developed the 1.2 Puretech 3 cylinder engine as a downsizing replacement for the EA 1.6 Prince 4 cylinder engines but is now keeping the EA Prince in production. BMW has also developed award winning 3 cylinder engines as with Ford Ecoboost 1 Litre, and Renault 1.2 TCe and the list goes on etc. Although, BMW is in big trouble with many existing engine types (check BMW engine recalls and US lawsuits). The question is, have PSA and others addressed the carbonation of the inlet valves on these new development engines, given the engines are holding EURO 6.1 compliance? Since your comments, I'm now very interested in the new 2.0 L BlueHdi as a means of saving the world using proven reliable technology. I haven't heard of any issues with the 1.2 Puretech and it is a very nice drive. The Dakar 3008 DKR V6 diesels are going well, and probably a purpose built Peugeot Sport race engine. Cheers

  14. #39
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfamill View Post
    PSA developed the 1.2 Puretech 3 cylinder engine as a downsizing replacement for the EA 1.6 Prince 4 cylinder engines but is now keeping the EA Prince in production.
    Ok, I'm familiar with the EB 1.2 litre engines and the EP6 1.6 litre engine, but what's an EA 1.6 litre engine?
    Regards,

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    Sorry, finger trouble - EP6 series!

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    This is a little similar to what I was talking about in previous post, less reference to the cam chain issue which is tension-ed by oil pressure and the carbon buildup on the inlet valves. PSA/Mini 1.6 THP - Problems in the intake camshaft timing system

  17. #42
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    In the facory blurb for the EP6FDT series (the newer higher output versions), it says:
    Pas d’évolution de la distribution hormis les arbres à cames traités en superfinition.
    So the camshaft is unchanged except for some form of finishing/honing.

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    If you've ever had the head off a car that has been running for sometime with a blown head gasket you'll notice how clean the piston/combustion chamber and valves are on the affected cylinder. the water entering the cylinder seems to clean the internals.

    Would water injection help?

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    No. This crud isn't in the combustion space. It sits on top of the hot valves on the manifold side, and restricts incoming air flow. The only guaranteed removal methods once it forms are scraping or blasting.

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    Interested to know if anyone has had the walnut blasting done and where ?

    Was regularly using Seafoam at changes which definitely made a difference early but now at the point of little to no benefit and either need to find a walnut blasting service or have a mechanic do it manually taking the head off.

    Tried Advan who do a lot of blasting but they don't have the inlet manifold adapter for the THP - they had used universal adapters on some cars but said it was less effective, time-consuming and messy so would prefer not to do it that way again.

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    It isn't a job I'd want to do with the amount of windscreen overhang on my car, but a mechanic tells me that if the inlet manifold/plenum is removed, with a mirror he can scrape clean the valves to a sufficient standard without touching the head. I suspect it's an all day job, even with practice, so costly.

  22. #47
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    Many years ago I cleaned the heavy build up on the back of the inlet valves on my series 2 405. I removed the injectors, and cut down the sides of a toothbrush and used this with Subaru inlet tract cleaner to scrub the back of the valves clean through the injector holes. the motor blew some smoke on start up but went on to be healthy for another 100 000 Klms until I sold it.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfamill View Post
    Why does it not effect the direct injection Diesel engines, surely the EGR valve vents engine breather gases into the intake also? Maybe the diesel does not have cam phasers, therefore no internal leak issue.
    Diesels never had port injection that sprayed fuel over the valves.

    And diesels do suffer from deposits from the egr systems... thats the reason for all the blanking plate kits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Interested to know if anyone has had the walnut blasting done and where ?
    Hills Eurohaus do the Walnut Blasting. Quoted me $600.

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    Access is sometimes a problem for the smaller models. What car was the quote for, Davo?

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