Peugeot 407 Temperature/Cooling System Problems
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Peugeot 407 Temperature/Cooling System Problems

    Hi, I am new here (to posting - my very first post)

    My water temperature gauge goes crazy like it is possessed.
    When the car starts up, it moves up to 85~90 degree range.

    The car;
    Peugeot 407 2005 wagon with V6 3.0 (2.9?) litre engine
    Odo: about 115K km
    My locality;
    Ryde area, Sydney NSW
    My situation;
    Desperate

    This gauge is doing 2 different things (may or may not be related) but allow me to explain both in case they are 2 different issues.

    1) Without warning and it can be within a minute of starting the car, the gauge will drop back to stone cold setting then like a rocket shoot to full temperature with warning to stop the car due to engine over heating

    2) The temperature sits in the 85~90 degree range but if it reaches 90 degrees, it shoots up to max temperature again.

    Observations;
    a) Engine oil temperature does not budge
    b) Physically, the engine does feel hot to touch sometimes
    c) Dropping the automatic transmission to neutral and the temperature gauge drops back to normal range within 2 seconds
    d) Water coolant tank is hot but not boiling
    e) The alarm can trigger every 10 seconds or sometimes you can drive 30~40 minutes and no alarm but it does seem to be getting worse...

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    Recent work done to the car;
    A) Water pump and timing belt/cam seals replaced
    B) Ignition coils / spark plugs replaced and rocker covers resealed (due to serious leakage)
    C) An air inlet was cracked and bogged up so I had it replaced (forgot the name, can look it up)

    Additional notes;
    - The alarm happened 2 times before we had the above work done.
    - A mechanic told me it is *not* the thermostat because the engine oil/gauge is not getting over heated...
    - I spoke to an auto-electrician and he said it did not sound like an electrical issue but an electronic issue....what the????
    - When we had the water pump replaced, the mechanic left us to refill the oil and coolant (no instructions) so I did.. but I found out ***LATER***(thanks to forums) that cooling system has a 3 point bleeding system. So I had the cooling system drained by a mechanic and refilled (assuming he knows how to do the bleeding to avoid air locks...
    - The car itself runs well with the exception being this problem I am describing and perhaps the exhaust is a little rich but not overly

    I have spent way too much. Every time a mechanic pops the hood, he always suggests something.

    Would really appreciate hearing the experience that anyone has had with the cooling/heating systems in these awesome cars.

    If you can give me a picture or point me to a youtube video etc, I am able to do things myself (done general car maintenance, oil change filters etc before). Not afraid to get my hands dirty - just need some pointers. Or if anyone knows of an expert who can fix these kind of issues at an affordable price (have spent way too much in the last 4~5 weeks) then that would also be appreciated.

    Really, any suggestions and or ideas would be really really REALLY APPRECIATED.

    Thank you for taking the time to read my problem (I love this community and have enjoyed reading here immensely) - hope someone can help.

    Kind regards,

    John

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default

    I would start with making sure it is bled properly

  3. #3
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    Welcome John.

    I concur with the bleeding. It sounds a bit like there is an air lock, which will make it warm up inconsistently, then when the air passes the sensor, gives it a false reading.

    Had the same thing happen in an Mi16 after radiator work. That vehicle has 4 bleed points, 2 obvious and 2 not so, including one that was higher than the others which was best done last with the car pointing downhill.

    I have a similar engine to yours, but never having bled it, have no idea how. There's a few specialists that you could easily get to from Ryde.

  4. #4
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    This image might help - it shows the cooling system of the ES9A engine as fitted to Citroen. The air bleed points are marked "2". Item "6" is the temperature sensor.

    Peugeot 407 Temperature/Cooling System Problems-screenshot-15.jpg

  5. #5
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    OK - I have never experienced this problem, however:

    1. Oil and water temperatures are fairly independent. Just because oil temperature remains within limits doesn't mean water temperature is OK.

    2. Water is a far better heat medium than air. If the temperature sensor is in air (because the cooling system hasn't been bled properly) the reading will be incorrect.

    3. Can you read the resistance of the temperature sensor when it's hot? Can you find out what the resistance would be for 85 degrees? I would disconnected the temperature sensor, then connect a resistor in its place. From there, tap the dash, and wiggle wires, until the fault re-appears. If it's an intermittent fault, that's your most likely avenue.

    Do you have a wiring manual?


    Ewan

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    That was my concern too when I read about the cooling system needing to be bled. Which is also why I had a mechanic empty and refill the coolant....So I can only assume (and hope) that it has been done correctly... but I also have my doubts because since that it is getting worse (either something is failing faster or he did not bleed it properly).
    When I did fill the coolant, I did recall that you should run the motor with overflow tank cap off until the coolant flows back in to the overflow tank.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman View Post
    I would start with making sure it is bled properly
    That was my concern too when I read about the cooling system needing to be bled. Which is also why I had a mechanic empty and refill the coolant....So I can only assume (and hope) that it has been done correctly... but I also have my doubts because since that it is getting worse (either something is failing faster or he did not bleed it properly).
    When I did fill the coolant, I did recall that you should run the motor with overflow tank cap off until the coolant flows back in to the overflow tank.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dijon16 View Post
    Welcome John.

    I concur with the bleeding. It sounds a bit like there is an air lock, which will make it warm up inconsistently, then when the air passes the sensor, gives it a false reading.

    Had the same thing happen in an Mi16 after radiator work. That vehicle has 4 bleed points, 2 obvious and 2 not so, including one that was higher than the others which was best done last with the car pointing downhill.

    I have a similar engine to yours, but never having bled it, have no idea how. There's a few specialists that you could easily get to from Ryde.
    What you are saying makes sense to me also. Also if the sensor is failing, being in an airlock, the sensor would probably heat up more and die even faster.... I would expect...

    Would you mind telling me either here or persona message who I might take the vehicle to (hoping they are experts with these French cars) near the Ryde area, incase I have no success over the weekend.

    Thank you

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    This image might help - it shows the cooling system of the ES9A engine as fitted to Citroen. The air bleed points are marked "2". Item "6" is the temperature sensor.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That is *very* helpful, THANK YOU.
    I will have a look in the daylight tomorrow.

    Can I ask a stupid question?
    I am assuming, if I remove a bleed cap that I should see coolant and if I don't then I have a problem, right???

    Thank you again

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukbilt1 View Post
    OK - I have never experienced this problem, however:

    1. Oil and water temperatures are fairly independent. Just because oil temperature remains within limits doesn't mean water temperature is OK.

    2. Water is a far better heat medium than air. If the temperature sensor is in air (because the cooling system hasn't been bled properly) the reading will be incorrect.

    3. Can you read the resistance of the temperature sensor when it's hot? Can you find out what the resistance would be for 85 degrees? I would disconnected the temperature sensor, then connect a resistor in its place. From there, tap the dash, and wiggle wires, until the fault re-appears. If it's an intermittent fault, that's your most likely avenue.

    Do you have a wiring manual?


    Ewan
    Thanks Ewan for your feedback.

    Responding in the same sequence;
    1) The mechanic was simply reassuring me that there is no problem driving the car but I agree with your comment.
    2) I agree and it is my concern there maybe an airlock where the sensor is located if it has not been bled properly. But I am frustrated because this is why I paid a mechanic (not a French car specialist) to empty and refill the coolant.
    3) My brother has electronic test equipment including multimeter etc, so on the weekend, I will look at this and see if we can confirm a faulty temperature sensor, I hope it is as simple as a faulty sensor and not more serious.

    Re wiring manual, I have purchased/downloaded the workshop manual. Will look at this over the weekend.

  11. #11
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    The caps are similar to tyre valves, so don't overtighten or you may strip them. Depending on height, opening one may bleed water. Here are more extracts from the Cit manual for the ES9A-
    Peugeot 407 Temperature/Cooling System Problems-screenshot-15.jpg

    Peugeot 407 Temperature/Cooling System Problems-screenshot-16.jpg

    The nearest Pug specialist to Ryde would be Colliers at Granville - www.colliersauto.com.au/

  12. #12
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    Thank you again for the extra diagrams/instruction.

    Is it necessary to use the filling container as pictured?

    Also, there is red and green coolant. When the water pump was replaced, the mechanic assured me that it should be red coolant for this vehicle. Can you or someone confirm red coolant is correct?
    The water in overflow tank was virtually clear when we changed the water pump.

    Thanks again

    regards,

    John

  13. #13
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    Well, your feedback has certainly inspired me and encouraged me, thank you.

    To update, tonight I went down to the garage;
    - removed the cap to the coolant overflow tank.
    - Ran the car for about 20 minutes without alarm. The water temperature took maybe 5 minutes to reach 85 degrees and it just sat there for about 10~15 minutes.
    - Put the cap back on and within about 4~5 minutes the temperature had crept up to 90 degrees at which point it went into it's stop the car - the engine is too hot mode. It cycled through this a few times. Then stabalized at which point I turned off the engine. Because I notice if you turn off the engine when the gauge has no reading after it just showed a max reading, the radiator fan is switched on and continues on for 5 minutes or more after removing key from ignition.

    Additional Diagnostics
    Whilst running the engine in idle tonight, I ran an ODBII diagnostic to my phone and it shows the following errors;
    1) U1213 (ESP/ASR) error. This is a problem the car had before and the dealer fixed it... it is now just come back for the 3rd time
    2) P0115 error. Now this, I believe this is "Engine Coolant Temperature Circuit Malfunction"

    So ignoring (1) for now, I watched a video clip on Youtube (not sure if I can post links here or not - so I won't) where the presenter says this error is 1 of 2 things, either the wiring/harness or the coolant temperature sensor (usually the latter).

    Anyway, I thank you all for your time, even to those who have not been able to offer any help. I do appreciate this community.


  14. #14
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    P0115 is telling you what you have seen already. You are being told that the water temperature as seen by the computer has stayed too low. The French handbook says-
    Défaut sur la croissance de la température d'eau ou Cohérence de température d'eau au démarrage (température trop faible)
    The tall funnel in the pics is to make filling easier when the fill point is so low. You need some extra height to make purging simple..

    The original coolant is dyed pale blue. (G33® | Glysantin®) and can only be got from dealers here for mucho $. It is an OAT product. Most Australian OAT coolant brands are dyed red.

  15. #15
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    1. Flush cooling system with a flush additive, refill with fresh water and drain twice.
    2. Change Coolant temp sensor (CTS) and thermostat.
    3. Fill with Penrite 10 tenths coolant ensure you have a good bleed and recheck ensuring fans are cycling.

    Note: The ES9J4S and later engines have just the one sensor that supplies a signal for the ECU, Temp gauge and thermos.
    Earlier cars such as XM and 406 up until about 1999 with ES9J4 have three separate sensors.

  16. #16
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