Time for a warm V6 in the 406...
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Thread: Time for a warm V6 in the 406...

  1. #1
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Default Time for a warm V6 in the 406...

    So on Friday the Coupé chucked a timing belt. It seems that the idler pulley between the cams seized up and shredded it from there. Front intake cam now freewheels about 270 degrees, so I suspect that at a minimum there's a few bent valves.

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    So, it seems as good an excuse as any to build a warmer motor for it.

    I have previously had an ES9J4S motor in the car, but the poor oil control system on the later block caused no end of trouble at the track. It was a disappointing step down to a standard J4 motor though after swapping it back.

    So my current thinking is to use an ES9J4 block, with ES9J4S pistons (10.9:1 compression), J4S head but with J4 cams, and perhaps the valve springs (will need to measure them). I'll retain the VVT and plug my Megasquirt system back in.

    Anyone done anything like this before?
    Last edited by Demannu; 9th September 2015 at 08:49 PM.
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    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Scott,
    A beautiful car. My son had a 1999 model auto.
    It screams out for more power.
    Oh, and a manual gearbox.

    Given that you have all of the above.

    Nike!

    And post lots of pics.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    What did Renault do to it I wonder in their high performance applications? Thinking Clio V6.

    Suspect most easy gains are in the ECU and maybe exhaust.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Wasn't the poor oil control in the sump ? I seem to remember you saying you were going to weld baffles into it to prevent oil starvation on long sweeping left-hand bends.

    Hmmm....you weren't doing naughty things in your 406 when it chucked the cam belt, were you ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio41sQskEs

  5. #5
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    Wasn't the poor oil control in the sump ? I seem to remember you saying you were going to weld baffles into it to prevent oil starvation on long sweeping left-hand bends.

    Hmmm....you weren't doing naughty things in your 406 when it chucked the cam belt, were you ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yio41sQskEs
    The problem is in the oil breathing. In the early models, the primary breather is fitted to the sump, with smaller ancillary breathers fitted to the cam covers. This means that airflow generally tries to draw oil back into the sump from the heads.

    On the later motors, the breather fitting in the centre of the V of the block was deleted. The only breathers are connected to the cam covers, which means that at high RPMs (high oil flow and probably highest blowby), oil is forced to remain in the head, and in my instance, pushed out the breather and into the intake.

    Hence I think a hybrid engine of the two will give me the best of both worlds.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Now I understand.

    BTW, this clip is a better example of how a 406 can drive (if driven by a madman ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBVTCdx-XDs
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Sob,

    I miss my 406SV
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  8. #8
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Oh, and the naughty thing I had done to break it? My wife took it to work..... She was none too happy about having to wait for a tow truck on her first early night off from work.
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    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  9. #9
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    What did Renault do to it I wonder in their high performance applications? Thinking Clio V6.

    Suspect most easy gains are in the ECU and maybe exhaust.
    I've done some reading on this, and it seems that they have higher compression ratio, different intake system, ported heads, different exhaust, different ECU. Lots of changes.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Bluey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    The problem is in the oil breathing. In the early models, the primary breather is fitted to the sump, with smaller ancillary breathers fitted to the cam covers. This means that airflow generally tries to draw oil back into the sump from the heads.

    On the later motors, the breather fitting in the centre of the V of the block was deleted. The only breathers are connected to the cam covers, which means that at high RPMs (high oil flow and probably highest blowby), oil is forced to remain in the head, and in my instance, pushed out the breather and into the intake.
    Project sounds great.

    You could disconnect all of the breathers from the inlet and run them to a catch tank instead. Oil reduces the octane of the fuel.

    Are the combustion chambers and valves different between J4 and J4S?

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! renoamust's Avatar
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    IS there any difference in the 2002 Citroen C5 V6
    I have a car here I am dismantling, the engine ran fine except had oil leaking WHICH WAS THE VALVE COVER BREATHER SNAPPED OFF thought it had terminal problems until remove intake manifold and coil packs

    I love my 406 SV wagon until yeah that BLOODY AUTO started playing up (hoping the C5 one will fix it BOTH ZF 4HP20 boxes)

    cheers Mark C..

  12. #12
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Project sounds great.

    You could disconnect all of the breathers from the inlet and run them to a catch tank instead. Oil reduces the octane of the fuel.

    Are the combustion chambers and valves different between J4 and J4S?
    A catch can will be happening this time as well. Already have the can, just need to find somewhere to put it.

    Not sure about the combustion chambers/valves. I'll know once I pull the head of the J4S!
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  13. #13
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renoamust View Post
    IS there any difference in the 2002 Citroen C5 V6
    I have a car here I am dismantling, the engine ran fine except had oil leaking WHICH WAS THE VALVE COVER BREATHER SNAPPED OFF thought it had terminal problems until remove intake manifold and coil packs

    I love my 406 SV wagon until yeah that BLOODY AUTO started playing up (hoping the C5 one will fix it BOTH ZF 4HP20 boxes)

    cheers Mark C..
    The motor in a 2002 model should be an ES9J4S. Other than the wiring loom being different (I think the citroen has the ECU on the opposite side of the engine bay?), the motors are the same between the Citroen and Peugeot.

    I've got a good ZF 4HP20 here if you need one....
    Last edited by Demannu; 18th October 2015 at 04:29 PM.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  14. #14
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    First step done: ES9J4 (early motor) dismantled.
    Time for a warm V6 in the 406...-wp_20150911_001.jpgTime for a warm V6 in the 406...-wp_20150911_002.jpg

    Tomorrow I'll start dismantling the ES9J4S to provide the crank, pistons and heads.
    renoamust likes this.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! renoamust's Avatar
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    PM me some details on that box would be Gr8
    Mark C.

  16. #16
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Default How to bring your V6 to life!!

    My apologies to anyone who might have been interested in following the assembly of this motor, as usual I have neglected to maintain a photo diary and the job is now finished.

    The final combination is an ES9J4 block, cams and throttle body, ES9J4S cylinder heads, valves (35mm inlets instead of J4 33.8mm, 31.5mm exhausts (same for both motors)) and cylinder head gaskets (0.74mm thickness as opposed to the original J4 items at 1.15mm), and, oddly enough, the only spare fuel pressure regulator I had lying around - from a Volvo 960.

    And the result? Wow!

    Below about 3500rpm nothing has changed from original - smooth and torquey on takeoff, and according to the trip computer at least, still at least as economical (probably more so - extra compression does that).

    But above those revs - the kick in the back is like an early Mi16 in it's brutality - but much more power. Traction is hard to maintain through second gear in a straight line.

    So I'm pretty happy with the result. I'll give it a couple of weeks to assess it's reliability before I pass final judgement.
    Last edited by Demannu; 18th October 2015 at 09:33 PM.
    FIVEDOOR, Beano and SilverGTi_6 like this.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I'll give it a couple of weeks to assess it's reliability
    And for the rings to bed in properly ?

  18. #18
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beano View Post
    And for the rings to bed in properly ?
    That won't take long
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    You dont muck around!

    Excellent, I want one!
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    You dont muck around!

    Excellent, I want one!
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    91 205 Si
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  21. #21
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    You dont muck around!

    Excellent, I want one!
    Oh, but apparently I do muck around - the car has been off the road for over 6 weeks, and my wife has been none too happy about it. Plus, I've had to put a stack of kms on the 607 that I would have rather put on the 406....

    It took me two hours today to wash off 6 weeks of built-up eucalyptus blossom from the tree under which it was parked.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  22. #22
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    A complete back garage engine rebuild in 6weeks? I'd say that's not mucking about at all, even if the wife thinks otherwise.
    Sounds like the ES9J4S suffers from a problem similar to the XU9J4, in that the breathing and oil control hold back what are otherwise quite good engines.
    Current: 205 GTI Mi16
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  23. #23
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I guess that's the advantage of having three cars between the two of us. A backup plan.

    A photo 'ex post facto'. I should have taken more as I went.
    Time for a warm V6 in the 406...-wp_20151019_001.jpg
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    How does the power compare with the engine you had in it that time I came with you to Northern NSW ?
    At full throttle, that one was slightly terrifying. When you said " I'll bet your Mitsubishi can't do THIS" and put your foot down, the roar of the exhaust, the sucking of the air intake, and the sudden upward leap of the front end came together like the sudden and dramatic movement of tectonic plates.

    Lucky you only did it for a few seconds.

  25. #25
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    A graphic description Mr Beano

    And the answer to your question - better! Best keep an eye on the speedo, for the sake of my licence. It's very... enthusiastic
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

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