Problem with 306 cooling Fan
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Problem with 306 cooling Fan

    Recently I purchased a 306 XT 1994 model with approx 90k. I'm not sure if cooling fan works properly. If it gets hot approx 30deg it takes 30-35 minutes for fan to come off after car had been switched off. Please are you having some problems or is there problem with the car? Any responce would be appreciated

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    So you're saying that the fans actually keep running for a half an hour after the car is turned off?
    How hot is the motor while all this is happening? To me it either has to be a case of a relay jamming closed, a faulty sensor, a fan not turning due to a breakage between the fan motor shaft & the blade or the fan running backwards & thereby drawing hot air over the radiator (a most unlikelt scenario.)
    The jammed relay or crook sensor would be my two top picks.


    Alan S
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  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Default Answer for Alan

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    So you're saying that the fans actually keep running for a half an hour after the car is turned off?
    How hot is the motor while all this is happening? To me it either has to be a case of a relay jamming closed, a faulty sensor, a fan not turning due to a breakage between the fan motor shaft & the blade or the fan running backwards & thereby drawing hot air over the radiator (a most unlikelt scenario.)
    The jammed relay or crook sensor would be my two top picks.


    Alan S
    Temperature is around 90 deg and it seems to me there are two fan speeds. if is 90 deg it works at full spped for 35 minutes and if engine is at 75 deg it works at lower speed for 15 minutes

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    Tadpole eval's Avatar
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    I had a similar problem with my s16 over summer when I was in Perth (naturally it's not a concern now I live in Canberra). My understanding is that the 2nd fan comes on at about 100 C - but mine seems to go real slow. Putt-ing around with the aircon seemed to make it really hot and it turned into a complete pig - the steering and gearbox kind of siezed up. I had to turn off the aircon to get it back to normal. Has anyone else had anything similar happen?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    without going out and checking but i think both of mine come on at once in the GTi-6
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Hi Guys,

    This seems like a serious problem. I would take respective cars to agood auto sparky. Eval, try Lee & Thomas also known as Battery World in Phillip ACT.

    No car should behave in the manner in which you both describe, especially in Eval's case. If it were an unsolvable/inherent problem I'd personaly ditch the car.

    Pugs of late have become very sloppy in terms of quality with numerous gltches that seem to prevail not withstanding the high number of recalls for the 206/306.

    Cheers .... Nick

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I agree; both of you have big problems.
    As a comparison, my Cit BX16V uses a sensor/thermo fanswitch in the radiatior. The original switch operated on a 93 cut in/88 cut out on slow speed and a 97 cut in/92 cut out on high speed.
    There was a mod that cut around 5 degrees off these which was a different range thermo switch. Since fitting this switch, my fans tend to run more but they still don't run anywhere near the times you quote. If my fans ran for more than 5 minutes without the air/con on, I'd freak out. 35 with the engine off is almost unbelievable & would have to be a serious electrical problem as I stated in my first post.
    When running, the air should pull from the front of the car back into the engine compartment as it would if the car was moving. I mention this because I did actually have one car that had the fans running backwards (that did wonders for the air con)
    I understand that Pugs use a different sensor system & I would start by getting that checked or replaced although as I say, other things including a sticky relay can also cause it. If not checked out in evals case, it's playing Russian Roullette with an engine or at least a cylinder head. Expensive gamble.

    Alan S
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I agree; both of you have big problems.
    As a comparison, my Cit BX16V uses a sensor/thermo fanswitch in the radiatior. The original switch operated on a 93 cut in/88 cut out on slow speed and a 97 cut in/92 cut out on high speed.
    There was a mod that cut around 5 degrees off these which was a different range thermo switch. Since fitting this switch, my fans tend to run more but they still don't run anywhere near the times you quote. If my fans ran for more than 5 minutes without the air/con on, I'd freak out. 35 with the engine off is almost unbelievable & would have to be a serious electrical problem as I stated in my first post.
    When running, the air should pull from the front of the car back into the engine compartment as it would if the car was moving. I mention this because I did actually have one car that had the fans running backwards (that did wonders for the air con)
    I understand that Pugs use a different sensor system & I would start by getting that checked or replaced although as I say, other things including a sticky relay can also cause it. If not checked out in evals case, it's playing Russian Roullette with an engine or at least a cylinder head. Expensive gamble.

    Alan S
    I'd agree with Alan. My 306 (and Xantia) in Perth run cooler with the AC on, since the fans are running then. Turn AC off, and temperature rises slightly in traffic on a hot day (hot means more than 35 degrees by the way). I've never seen much over 90 though on the gauges.

    JohnW

  9. #9
    Member Lightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    I'd agree with Alan. My 306 (and Xantia) in Perth run cooler with the AC on, since the fans are running then. Turn AC off, and temperature rises slightly in traffic on a hot day (hot means more than 35 degrees by the way). I've never seen much over 90 though on the gauges.

    JohnW
    I had a problem once on my GTI6 where once the fans started they would stay on (both of them) for the entire drive. I found that I had faulty biron sender/sensor (or bad contact). Replaced the sensor and cleaned the contact and all was fine. On the GTI6 there are 3 temperature sensors one on top of the other next to the thermostat at the RHS of the engine. The biron sender is the middle maroon coloured sensor. It has light blue sensor on top of it and a green one below it. There was also evidence of corrosion/bad contact when I took the connector off.

    My advice would be to check the condition of the connectors for the temperature sensors (I don't know where they are located on your car) clean and reconnect. See whether that changes anything.

    I have posted a picture. Sensors are on the left hand side.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Problem with 306 cooling Fan-sensors.jpg  
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  10. #10
    Member Lightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    without going out and checking but i think both of mine come on at once in the GTi-6
    If both of them are coming on at once there is something wrong. They are designed to operate at two discrete temperatures with the second one turning on around 95 to 99 degrees (somthing like that). You definitely know when both are running as you can hear it and even feel the vibration.

    I have a link to a useful datasheet http://www.306gti6.com/downloads/thumbs/datasheet.gif but all it says is that the thermostat opening temperature is 89 to 99 Celcius.
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  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning
    If both of them are coming on at once there is something wrong. They are designed to operate at two discrete temperatures with the second one turning on around 95 to 99 degrees (somthing like that). You definitely know when both are running as you can hear it and even feel the vibration.

    I have a link to a useful datasheet http://www.306gti6.com/downloads/thumbs/datasheet.gif but all it says is that the thermostat opening temperature is 89 to 99 Celcius.

    they have been like that since the car was new

    they come on low and if it gets too hot or the A/c is on they come on high

    but ever since i bought the car new they have never been any different and yes if you can feel the vibration then the screw needs checking on the fan blade as i only feel mine when it is coming loose

    left hand thread 3mm countersunk they are too

    been through a few of them over the years
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  12. #12
    Member Lightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    they have been like that since the car was new

    they come on low and if it gets too hot or the A/c is on they come on high

    but ever since i bought the car new they have never been any different and yes if you can feel the vibration then the screw needs checking on the fan blade as i only feel mine when it is coming loose

    left hand thread 3mm countersunk they are too

    been through a few of them over the years
    Cheers mate. I will check it when I get the car. It is in customs at the moment awaiting inspection. I have brought my 6 with me from the UK. Where exactly are these coutnersunk screws? Do you have a pic? Thanks in advance.

    Don't want to hijack the thread though. Interested to know what the problem was with the 306 XT.
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning
    Cheers mate. I will check it when I get the car. It is in customs at the moment awaiting inspection. I have brought my 6 with me from the UK. Where exactly are these coutnersunk screws? Do you have a pic? Thanks in advance.

    Don't want to hijack the thread though. Interested to know what the problem was with the 306 XT.

    on my 306 the countersunk screws are right in the middle of each fan

    if you stick your head down under the front bumper and look through the lower part of it you should be able to see the fans and then the screws on each fan should be visible

    the only place around here i have been able to buy them from is the pug dealer in dubbo a bit over an hour from here but they post them put to me and i keep spares in the car just in case

    i can supply the parts CD's for you for the measly sum of $10 P&P which may help you as well

    PM me for more info
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    on my 306 the countersunk screws are right in the middle of each fan

    if you stick your head down under the front bumper and look through the lower part of it you should be able to see the fans and then the screws on each fan should be visible

    the only place around here i have been able to buy them from is the pug dealer in dubbo a bit over an hour from here but they post them put to me and i keep spares in the car just in case

    i can supply the parts CD's for you for the measly sum of $10 P&P which may help you as well

    PM me for more info
    I was in in the car for quite a bit today and did feel a strong vibration and noise while the a/c was running-i could hear the fans running but it was making more noise than usual and i could feel the vibration through the steering wheel --i have a 94 306.
    Should i check the screws on the fans then check the connectors on the sensors and then if no go take it off to the mechanic?

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyd
    I was in in the car for quite a bit today and did feel a strong vibration and noise while the a/c was running-i could hear the fans running but it was making more noise than usual and i could feel the vibration through the steering wheel --i have a 94 306.
    Should i check the screws on the fans then check the connectors on the sensors and then if no go take it off to the mechanic?

    well i know when i can feel mine one or both of the fans are coming loose

    i tighten up the little piddling screw in the middle that holds the fan to the fan motor and all is smooth again

    i carry a phillips head screw driver in the car just for this purpose

    the dealer i got the car from said there is nothing they can do about it when i bought it so i have put up with it

    tried loctite and other methods to try and keep them in there but nothing works and they come loose over time

    what do you expect, 3mm LH thread little screw
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  16. #16
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    Well well well.

    Today I got a phone call from my sister telling me the 306 had overheated driving in traffic back from my cousin's place in Newtown. Not to worryshe said, she'd been watching it and pulled over.

    After work I went and met her and the car and couldn't work out what was wrong - it was full of coolant, couldn't see any signs of coolant having been blown out the overflow pipe... confusing! So I started it up, and after a little while the fans came on, which was even more confusing (why would it overheat with the fans going, unless the water pump wasn't working).

    Anyway, given that peak hour(s) was over, decided to drive it home, and turn the engine off when waiting at lights etc if need be.

    Guess what I found when I got home and had decent light? The fans have completely come off the shafts. BOTH of the fans that is. They spin, but they just spin because the shaft inside them is spinning... so they don't spin with any gusto at all. No wonder it overheated - they're like phantom fans!! Look like they're doing the job, but really they're doing nothing. The little tiny pins that go through the back of the fan holding it on the shaft have both sheared off.

    Going to try and manufacture something up tomorrow with dad's help to see if we can get by without buying new fans. Bloody ridiculous! I see what you mean by the tiny screw pugrambo...

    Derek (who was worried he had a cooked engine for a while after getting the phone call)

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Deka

    i must say now that you have seen it you will agree that for such an important thing for a car as cooling and they use those tiny little screws to hold the blades on is ridiculous

    the shafts have a flat edge for driving the fan

    if the fan blades are chewed out you can fill the side up with epoxy and put the screw back in and get going again

    from memory the blades are around $60ea

    you also have to watch that the motor shafts aren't bent as this can happen as well
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  18. #18
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    Pugrambo,

    Get this. My car doesn't have screws holding the fan blades on, it has an incy wincy little clip. The clip on the driver's side fan had fallen off (contributing to the problem no doubt!)

    I've spent a bit of time trying to figure out the best plan of attack this morning. I had the plastic that goes between the front bar and the radiator support off, but you can't get the fan motor out like that... to do so involves taking off the whole front bar which is a pain in the ass to do I think.

    I can see the pins through the shafts on both fans have sheered off, so the fans have no positive drive at all. I've tried to punch the sheered off pins out of the shaft but it's just not going to work unless I can get the fan motor out and on the bench. I can't get the fan motors out because there's no way to stop the nuts at the back turning unless I take the radiator out.

    I was just starting to take the front bar off when dad came out and said "didn't Damon give you a warranty on this car?" I'd completely forgotten about that - so I got the warranty book out and guess what, it covers cooling fans It can wait till Tuesday. I rarely drive in traffic which is probably why I've never noticed a problem.

    Stupid stupid stupid design. I'm really disappointed in it actually. Just as a matter of interest, I had a look at the C3's cooling fan. It's extremely easy to get out.

    Derek

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    this may give you a bit of an idea on what you have

    and yes this version in the attachment has the clip and not the little screw

    might give you a bit of an idea
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    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  20. #20
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BANEM
    Temperature is around 90 deg and it seems to me there are two fan speeds. if is 90 deg it works at full spped for 35 minutes and if engine is at 75 deg it works at lower speed for 15 minutes
    The original poster seems to have ridden off into the night, but the fan off the shaft seems to be the most logical explanation of the 35 minutes the fans would run, after all it would be as hot as hades & be cooling by natural draught in a heated & insulated situation & if the car was garaged, it would work the same as a Thermos flask but I'm intrigued at the statement about the speed of the fans. Is it that BANEM was going on sound & not by actually seeing the fans rotating I wonder?
    If they were seen to be rotating at the speeds described, they still have a problem wouldn't you agree?


    Alan S
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  21. #21
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    Well Alan the fans still *look* like they're powered by the motor and spinning, but in reality they're just free-spinning on the shaft.

    Stupid design, as I said before
    Given it's not a problem for most of the driving I do, and the car's in warranty, someone else can fix it I've decided

    Derek
    p.s. anyone know how to get the front bumper bar off? I'm assuming you've got to take the mudguard liners out and undo some bolts up under there? I didn't get that far before I was reminded about the warranty.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKa
    Well Alan the fans still *look* like they're powered by the motor and spinning, but in reality they're just free-spinning on the shaft.

    Stupid design, as I said before
    Given it's not a problem for most of the driving I do, and the car's in warranty, someone else can fix it I've decided

    Derek
    p.s. anyone know how to get the front bumper bar off? I'm assuming you've got to take the mudguard liners out and undo some bolts up under there? I didn't get that far before I was reminded about the warranty.

    to take the front bar off you have to remove the inner guards, there are 4 bolts under the front of the bumper, then there are 2 bolts on either side that hold the bar to the radiator support panel, on the drivers side you will have to remove the washer bottle (remember where the 2 lines go on this otherwise you will have water at the back when you want it at the front), then on either side there is a bolt that operates a clamp (white), loosen this off on both sides and the bar will be free to lift off

    oh don't forget to unclip the wiring from the fog lights

    it should take you around 15-20 mins to remove the front bar

    hope that helps
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  23. #23
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    Just an update to this thread.

    All States Warranty Network (ASWN) who provide the warranty on my 306 called me today and said they are fixing the cooling problem on my car by replacing the two cooling fans at a cost of $868.01 (I think that was it, I was on my mobile, it was definately eight hundred and something).

    Frighteningly expensive! Thank heavens for the warranty hey? Thumbs up to ASWN for sorting it out so quickly.

    I'll get the car back later this week when the new fans come in.

    Derek.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    good news about the car

    the fan units complete are worth quite a bit of money

    you just want to hope they last and don't do the same again
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  25. #25
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    Got the car back yesterday, all fixed The new fans are the ones with the screw in the middle so it shouldn't happen again.

    Derek.

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