407 starting problem
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Thread: 407 starting problem

  1. #1
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    Default 407 starting problem

    Hi All, been enjoying trouble free motoring for a while now and then what started as a once in a blue moon problem has now grown into a bit of a pain.
    Starting about a couple of months back occasionally you would turn the key and only hear a click from the starter motor or relay in our 407 diesel automatic. Try again and away it would go, then no problems for a week or more only to have it happen again.
    Well the frequency of this has got closer and closer to where now I'm worried to take the car anywhere in case I get stuck. Can remember having some thing similar in an old Valiant which was also a automatic and if you jiggled the gear shifter around it would then start.
    No such luck in the 407 though. Was wondering if it could be the starter motor solenoid as all you get when it won't start is a faint click from under the bonnet.
    I have tried the spare key thinking maybe the ignition barrel but doesn't make any difference and I have put a multi meter over the battery terminals when starting it and get very similar readings to our diesel Pajero when starting so don't think it's the battery and can't think of any other way to check it. Have not been in a position to trying jumper leads on it when it won't start and wonder if there is some special Peugeot way you have to place the jumper leads on to ensure that you don't damage any electrical stuff when you do.
    Hope someone out there has had a similar problem and can shed a bit of light on what I should do next, cheers Steve

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    This sounds very similar to a problem we have with out 406. Hasn't done it for a while, but it's only ever happened at home. Each time it happens, my wife comes back into the house and tells me the battery is flat! I point out that dash lights don't dim when I turn the key, flick key on and off several times, and eventually it starts. It then gives no problem for some time.

    I'm guessing a relay, but don't know where to look either. Pretty sure that, like you, we get the faint click when it doesn't start.

    Cheers

    Alec

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The battery needs a load test for proper verification.

    Some of the diesel starters don't seem especially long-lasting.
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    My old Ford did that, try tapping the starter, then all ok
    Wife was good at this until I changed the starter to fix the problem
    For what it is worth, don't know where the starter is though on a 407

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    Thanks fellas for the reply, yes Armidillo that's exactly what's happening to mine very annoying and about to go out and just not trusting the 407 at the moment, thanks Addo where do you go to get your battery tested properly where they don't just want to sell you a new battery?
    Driven, I too don't know where the starter is on the 407 to give it a tap but just another thought to ponder is I did that on my older Pajero and completely stuffed the starter motor as a lot of modern starters have the magnets glued to the inside of the housing. Broke all the magnets in the Pajero and had to shell out for a whole new starter. Anyone else had this starting problem and fixed it, would be interested in hearing from you, cheers and keep up the replies, Steve

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Any good independent workshop will have a battery load tester and should be willing to share the figure with you - maybe in conjunction with other works? From personal experience a result at 80% of rated CCA capacity is fine, but from that threshold, have it checked every six months.

    Otherwise: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290822011542

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Any good independent workshop will have a battery load tester and should be willing to share the figure with you - maybe in conjunction with other works? From personal experience a result at 80% of rated CCA capacity is fine, but from that threshold, have it checked every six months.

    Otherwise: Projecta BLT100 12V 100 AMP Battery Load Tester Charge Checker 6 12 Volt NEW | eBay
    with out the car running battery should be approx. 12.70 volts. running should be around 13.40 volts. super cheap can do a load test, ive seen many batteries come down the line with good volts but as soon as the are load tested fail... if its a diesel (sorry new to Peugeots) when was the glow plug last replaced?? a good battery for a diesel would be around 500 cca. A word about battery's when buying one ,, exide batteries are now made in the Philippines have been for the last 15 months ,they are the same as supercharge brand, the only Australian made battery is century don't let any one tell you different. also giggling the old valiant lever worked because the neutral switch was miss aligned,
    Last edited by loopie; 30th August 2015 at 03:28 PM.

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    Don't know why you guys are pointing the finger at the battery - in this case either the starter doesn't even try to turn, or with no further charging (or even warming in the sun) the battery spins the starter motor with ease, and the motor fires. The only difference is just retrying the action of turning the key. Our T6 307 battery got low in charge once (a mystery, as 'economy mode' should have saved it), and it behaved as you would expect - struggled to start, but didn't give up trying altogether!

    At least that's what happens in our 406, and that's exactly how Steve has described his problem. So we could be talking ignition switch, or starter solenoid. Is there a relay in between the two that could be playing up? We had a Magna with exactly the same symptoms, except that it would only do it when hot. Mechanics could never diagnose it, because they never looked at it until it had cooled down .

    With the Magna there was a relay that controlled fuel, spark and power to the starter. Running a wire directly to the starter would allow the engine to be turned over, but it wouldn't start (so obviously no fuel or spark). Mechanic took a punt and replaced the relay - problem never recurred. Do (fuel injected) Pugs have an equivalent relay?

    Cheers

    Alec

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    With the Magna there was a relay that controlled fuel, spark and power to the starter. Running a wire directly to the starter would allow the engine to be turned over, but it wouldn't start (so obviously no fuel or spark). Mechanic took a punt and replaced the relay - problem never recurred. Do (fuel injected) Pugs have an equivalent relay?
    It depends, but most 407 diesels don't have an electric fuel pump so not likely to be a problem.

    My thoughts would be that the clicking noise would be the starter gear engaging with the ring gear. when the starter gear reaches the end of its travel, it pulls a contactor in with it, connecting the starter to the battery so it will spin.
    I would suggest that the contactor inside the starter motor is worn and not making a good electrical connection, hence click but no go.
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    Diagnosing starters in Peugeots with auto transmission is different from the manual transmissions.

    First is to identify the symptom and auto transmission model.

    For AL4 & ZF 4H20 transmissions, power doesn't go directly to the starter. It first get to Auto transmission multifunction switch, before it reaches the starter. If the multifunction switch mounted on those transmission becomes faulty, the engine will not crank (non-start issue). One of the ways of manually finding out if the multifunction switch is the culprit is to shift the gear lever to Neutral, consciously shake the lever in neutral while you turn and hold the key on start position. If the engine suddenly cranks, then the multifunction switch is the culprit. Or you can simply plug in PP2000 and scan the transmission ECU, which will tell you if the switch is faulty or not.

    AM6 Auto transmission doesn't have Multifunction switch. The transmission ECU serves both purposes.

    If you are getting or hearing click from the starter while you turn the key to start position, then the starter solenoid or brush inside the starter is the culprit, not the multifunction switch.

    Ikenna

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    Thanks for all the valuable info fellas, will definitely get the battery checked out but have a feeling that it is something to do with the starter solenoid. Have it booked into Cullens up on the Sunny coast on Wednesday for another reason and will get them to check it out whilst it's there, will let you know what they come up with once they have hooked it up to their scan tool, cheers Steve

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    Well got the bad news today that the starter motor is in need of replacement... quoted around $730 for the non genuine starter or $1100 for a genuine one. Add to that around $200 labour and you can do the maths.
    Have tracked down a new Valeo starter from a mob in Sydney called EAI for just under $400 add to that GST and freight and probably looking at just under $500. Half the price of what I've been quoted to do the whole job.
    Had a bit of a look online and seems like a job that I'm capable of and could do in an hour or so but what is worrying me is what happens once you disconnect the battery to change the starter? Do you need to hook it up to a scan tool to reset stuff or do you need codes for the stereo etc once you reconnect the battery? Has anyone used these starters before and had a go at changing it themselves, cheers Steve
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    you will lose the radio memory, but other then that there are no side affects to disconnecting the battery.
    It is a little tight in there, but should be a nice DIY job. Go for it.

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    Well bit the bullet yesterday and order the Valeo starter from EAI, around $450 delivered to door. Nearly $300 under quote from dealer to supply a non genuine one.
    Had a bit of a look under the bonnet and pulled the air box out and looks a little tight in there with all the electrical wiring and piping but figure take it slowly and lots of photo's before I start pulling it apart.
    Has there been a thread done on this before? Have searched on the Peugeot and technical forums but had no luck finding one.
    If anyone who has done this before and can shed any light on pit falls or difficulties encountered it would be great to hear from you, cheers Steve

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    Haven't done one, but a suggestion is to save images of the same type removed motor from Ebay and similar advertisements. Sometimes this will give a clue as to a hidden fastener, or the best angle of attack.

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    Starter motor turned up at lunchtime yesterday (only order it on Friday so hats off to the guys at EAI and TNT) wasn't working so thought 'no time like the present'. Have taken pictures and not sure where abouts to put the thread so will just stick it on the end of this reply.
    All up took about 40 minutes and really apart from a bit of electrical wiring, there is plenty of room to get it out. My only drama now is getting a fault saying the anti pollution system faulty. Had that before and after about 6 to 10 starts the fault cleared itself. Fingers crossed again.
    Ok started by sticking the car up on ramps to make it a better working height for me.
    407 starting problem-ramps.jpg

    Disconnect the battery, I was told to start with the positive terminal, so that is what I did.
    407 starting problem-disconnect-battery.jpg
    Removed the air box, you have to undo the larger hose clamp at the back of the box lid and unclip the electrical connection that I think must be for the air meter(?) to get the lid of the box off completely.
    Next undo the 4 (one is hiding under the top intercooler hose) large Phillip head screws. Take the lid off completely and remove air filter as well. Next there is a plastic clip between the RHS of the air box base and the battery, I just put a flat head screwdriver in there in it came apart easily.
    Now this base is also connected to the air intake pipe (hard plastic with a funnel like mouth) that snakes around and is attached near to the top of the radiator. It has one of those stupid plastic clips that you pretty much have to destroy to get it out (which I did and used a cable tie upon reassembly).
    407 starting problem-remove-air-box.jpg
    Once all that is out of the way I completely removed the upper intercooler pipe.
    407 starting problem-remove-top-intercooler-pipe.jpg
    Then loosen and take off the bottom intercooler pipe just at the top and push to one side.
    407 starting problem-move-aside-lower-intercooler-pipe.jpg
    You will have to take out the bolt that holds the plastic housing that all the electrical wiring is in. This will give you enough slack in it to move it out of the way to get the starter out. The 13mm bolt is located next to the middle one of the 3 allen bolts.
    Now undo the two wires that connect to the solenoid of the starter motor.
    407 starting problem-remove-starter-wiring.jpg
    Next take out the 3 allen bolts that hold the starter motor into the bell housing.
    407 starting problem-3-allen-bolts.jpg
    Once these are out you can, with a bit of wiggling and gentle pushing of the radiator and other various hoses and the earlier mentioned electrical wiring get the starter out.
    First push it back to the left to free it from the bell housing then moving the pipes etc bring it out forward and to the right. Out it should come.
    Installation is just a reverse of this process. Hope this helps someone else save themselves hundreds of dollars. And as a footnote the fault with the anti pollution system has cleared itself so an all round win I guess. Cheers Steve
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    Well Done Steve.

    Did you dismantle the old starter - I'm wiling to bet it's the fixed magnets that have come un-glued and jammed the works inside.

    I had that problem on my D9 406 coupe (Manual)!
    Last edited by Roland; 8th September 2015 at 02:54 PM.

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    Either that or it just needed a new set of brushes & the commutator dressed & maybe new bushes.
    Lets say either side of a 100 smackeroos.

    Oh Happy Dayzzzzzzzzzz!

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    I'd be getting the original one looked at - if tapping it would make it start, then brushes are high on the list, and cheap to replace.

    It doesn't hurt to keep a spare.
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    Did replacing the starter fix the issue?
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    Thanks for the replies fellas, just to be clear with the original starting problem it was intermittent and the car would usually start first thing and would then sometimes just click when you tried to restart it at what I assumed to be the solenoid sometimes. Try the key enough times and would usually start though this got gradually worse. Then one day around at a friends house it refused to start. Left it over night and started the next day. Couldn't trust it after that and decided to take it to the Peugeot dealer who diagnosed it as the starter and that it happened once the engine was hot. And yes now that the starter is changed had no problem. Hope this helps cheers Steve.

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    One thing I should mention is that it was great and easy dealing with EAI. Spoke to both the Melbourne and Sydney offices and both places asked for my VIN to make sure I got the right part with the blokes being friendly, interested and informative. After looking at the invoice it was cheaper than what they quoted me over the phone and like I said earlier it couldn't have got here any quicker as I ordered on Friday and it was delivered on Monday.
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