Woah, theres that oversteer!
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Icon11 Woah, theres that oversteer!

    Ok, first day with a 205 gti, driving it nice and slow (it also happens to be raining for the first time in a few weeks). I filled the tank up, checked the tyre pressures, and drove it home.

    On the way i went round a fairly gentle sweeper at the speed limit (60, and not unusual for any car) and noticed a fairly deep puddle on the inside of the corner that i gently floated wide to avoid. Suddenly the rear end got the message that i threw a scandinavian flick in there and took a step to the left.

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    Luckily i managed to countersteer and put the gas down a bit to pull it straight, but that could've been much messier if i had been pushing closer to the limit.

    Now isn't that oversteer just a little freak? I mean, i had been much harder through other corners previous to this incident without more than a mere nudge from the rear end, and here it is trying to push my car into the opposite lane.

    Is there something wrong with my car, or is the famous lift oversteer really that bad?

    Oh, and my fuel gauge is broken. Whats the cost of one of those buggers?
    Last edited by Cubits; 23rd March 2004 at 02:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be too worry about a broken fuel guage....if you Dash is cracked..then don't bother pulling the dash out to replace it with a new guage, unless you are a surgeon by trade.

    You can also check whether the fuel guage sender unit is faulty or not...sometimes may not be the guage itself but rather the sender unit underneath the right rear passenger seat.

    Cheers
    Billy

    PS. tame those oversteer....
    Stock '87 205 GTi
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    -Memories are good only if you don't have to deal with the past.-

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Yeah, i was thinking it would be the sender. I need to go get a haynes manual...

    The car deserves a nice once over of the mechanics, even though it was lovingly handled by the previous owner.

    Oh, one more thing. There seems to be a bit of a rattle between 3k and 4.5k. I think the exhaust might be loose (could be resonance because its gone by 4.5k, and thats when the exhaust stops booming).

    Apart from that its a very amazing little car. The torque in any gear is quite staggering, and it really feels like it has loads more oomph than a mk2 golf gti (8v), which was my previous hot hatch benchmark.

    Now it just needs a small stereo setup (just two speakers and a cd player.. not ICE), some tyres for the speedline wheels, and we're set to stun.

    BTW, this forum is great, is it not?

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    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    What year is your GTi???

    This forum is good....I love the balance of mature experience French car nuts and young Anakins like me

    Cheers
    Billy
    Stock '87 205 GTi
    Stock '98 306 GTi-6

    -Memories are good only if you don't have to deal with the past.-

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Its a 1987, but it looks brand new from the outside. The previous owner used very good car care products and it certainly shows! The interior is classic peugeot shabby, but at least the glove box flap hasnt snapped!

    BTW, took me a fair while to find the lights and the horn... lol.

    I'm deciding between yoko e100's and dunlop fm901's for my speedlines atm... but soon it should be prowling brisvegas in full spec (they do look a little too much like a regular 205 on the 14's).

    Maybe i'll see a couple of you lot around, i've only every seen a handful of gti's out and about, you must all hide from me.

  6. #6
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    That oversteer sounds a bit freaky there!

    My advice on tyres would be towards the Dunlop FM901s or replacement Direzza DZ101s. Dunlop tend to have a good reputation for "feel", and I notice tihs with them too. Yokohama's A539 and previous A520 had a bit of a reputation of letting go suddenly, not the kind of thing you want in a car that is as twitchy as a 205 GTI. I'm not sure how the AVS ES100s are in comparison, but my gut tells me that they would lack a bit of progression.

    Alternatively, if you were on a budget the Sumitomo HTRZ IIs are also very nice in the progression stakes. They have a relationship with Dunlop, and feel very similar to the FM901s I had, but with a bit less grip.

  7. #7
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubits
    Ok, first day with a 205 gti,

    Now isn't that oversteer just a little freak? I mean, i had been much harder through other corners previous to this incident without more than a mere nudge from the rear end, and here it is trying to push my car into the opposite lane.
    I think you summed it up in the first line .. "first day with the GTi" ... you'll get used to it and as long as you can feel it coming on, learn not to over correct.

    The 206 also does this but you must push it harder for the effect to kick in, take a little more time to get used to the car and you'll find youself taking most speed advisory signs (not speed signs - but the yellow ones) 2.5 - 3 times faster then the posted speed.

    - XTC206 -

    PS: Still wouldn't hurt to get it checked out to see if everything is tied down properly and all in good order/allignment.
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
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    Even my 1.6ltr 206 has the same kind of oversteer, but only if it's being pushed hard, it's a very easy car to correct I find. However late braking in the 206 just doesn't work even if you turn in at the last minute when you *think* your front wheels will grip, it still produces buckets of understeer, I wasn't used to the understeer in a FWD car when I first bought my pug, then at the same time I was very suprised how much oversteer you can have doing...for example...a high speed hill climb
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    Member sammyf's Avatar
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    BTW, took me a fair while to find the lights and the horn... lol.

    Yeah, I had the same thing with the horn. Puts into perspective Homer Simpson's number one rule when designing a car "I want a horn, here, here, here and here. You can never find a horn when you're angry.

    Maybe i'll see a couple of you lot around, i've only every seen a handful of gti's out and about, you must all hide from me. [/QUOTE]

    There are a few around Brizzie, I have seen at least five in my area. Don't forget to wave.

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    nJm
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    Why are 205's so tail happy? I've experienced how freaky a 205 1.1L GL is when you lift off in a corner. Actually just being in that car was scary. Who the hell puts independant rear suspension on a car but neglects to fit an anti-roll bar!?!?!
    Nick
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    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    Check the tyre pressures.

    How old and hard are the tyres?

    If they are old get some good new ones.

    I had the same experience when I first got mine. Then I changed the tyres and it became a whole new car. Its never come out on me again on the street. And if it was going to, it should have already.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    The 206 also does this but you must push it harder for the effect to kick in, take a little more time to get used to the car and you'll find youself taking most speed advisory signs (not speed signs - but the yellow ones) 2.5 - 3 times faster then the posted speed.
    .
    Are you serious..3 times the recommended corner speed!?!? Even 2.5 times is pushing things. On a 45 km/hr corner, 2.5 times is just over 112 km/hr and 3 times is a massive 135 km/h!

    On single lane mountain roads, I can usually take it a little over 2 times, for example I can do most 45 km/h corners at around 100 km/hr. If there's very good visibility and no nasty cambers or bumps, could push it to around 5 km/hr more. 5 more might not sound like much, but it's a lot more [lateral acceleration = (velocity^2)/radius].

    The fastest in relation to recommended corner speed I've taken it so far (not yet taken the '6 on the track) is maybe a bit over 105 km/h on a 35 km/hr corner that was on a extremely wide, 2 lane twisty highway with great visibility (eagle on the hill rd, adelaide). That was keeping to one lane, with the tyres starting to let go but it is an exceptional piece of road to allow those speeds with little risk. Can't be 100% sure of the speed though, cos the last thing I'm doing right in the middle of going hot around a corner is looking at my speedo!

    The only exceptions to my 'just over 2 times' limit is at 15 km/hr and 20 km/hr corners, where I find they're quite easy to take at 60 km/h, even 70 km/hr, but that's probably also because it's quite easy and controllable to slide the car a little at those speeds. Vice versa, on most 80 km/hr corners, I wouldn't dream of doing 160 km/hr on it!
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Ok, big problems today!!

    Second day with the car, and it started overheating terribly. I had to pull over and let it cool down just so i could get it home.

    The water temp went through the roof unless i was doing 100 down the motorway. When i indicated the water temp gauge would bounce slightly with the indicator... that was weird, but not nearly as serious as the radiator.

    Anyway, now it's off the road until i can find a cure for it (ouch, more money).
    Last edited by Cubits; 23rd March 2004 at 02:19 AM.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    you sure the car was overheating and it's not a charge/earth problem ?

    sounds a bit sus when you say the temp guage was flicking with the indicators
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  15. #15
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    Are you serious..3 times the recommended corner speed!?!? Even 2.5 times is pushing things. On a 45 km/hr corner, 2.5 times is just over 112 km/hr and 3 times is a massive 135 km/h!
    Depends on the road and conditions ... 2x is almost an absolute GIVEN (anything posted 50kph or under).. yet to find one this hasn't applied to ... 2.5 on few is not a big stetch in some cases, 3 times is only on minor occasions marked 30 or less. I've NEVER done an 80 @ 240 , but 160 isn't beyond it ... hell there was a 50 on a run here that was almost tripled (130). ... but knowing when to stop pushing is the key .. maybe I should rephrase ... 2x is almost always possible ... 1.5x is a pretty much a certainty anything over 2x and it better just right (or the corner is marked wrong).

    I don't condone street racing in ANY shape or form, and NEVER tackle something you havn't driven before, but keep in you mind speed advisory signs are on the conservative side casue they are there for 4WD's and other large vehicles.

    Drive safe dudes, you NEVER know what's around the corner.

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    Hello Mr Cubits.
    Was there any thermatic fan action?
    How does the radiator look internally?
    ALways change the thermostat when you buy an old clunker.

    I first enjoyed the delights of oversteer on the 205 at Phillip Island coming into the main straight, on the warm-up, watching the sheep nearby and getting the corner quite wrong. Backed off, and YEAH BABY. Spun at 130 kph. Full 360. I got it all on video from inside, including how my eyes looked in the rear view mirror.
    However, once I knew how the car behaved I was prolly the happiest guy lapping there when I knew how to steer the car from the rear just with the throttle.
    Good tyres, in my case Dunlop Formula R, made the car handle nicer on the track.
    Blame hard old tyres and a big fat back-off for your experience I guess.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    Depends on the road and conditions ... 2x is almost an absolute GIVEN (anything posted 50kph or under).. yet to find one this hasn't applied to ... 2.5 on few is not a big stetch in some cases, 3 times is only on minor occasions marked 30 or less. I've NEVER done an 80 @ 240 , but 160 isn't beyond it ... hell there was a 50 on a run here that was almost tripled (130). ... but knowing when to stop pushing is the key .. maybe I should rephrase ... 2x is almost always possible ... 1.5x is a pretty much a certainty anything over 2x and it better just right (or the corner is marked wrong).

    I don't condone street racing in ANY shape or form, and NEVER tackle something you havn't driven before, but keep in you mind speed advisory signs are on the conservative side casue they are there for 4WD's and other large vehicles.

    Drive safe dudes, you NEVER know what's around the corner.

    - XTC206 -
    I haven't seen many signposted 80 km/h's that I'd take at 160..actually come to think of it, I haven't seen any 80 signpost corners that I'd take above 140 on a public road. On road tyres, most cars wouldn't pull more than 1g around a corner. Pulling 1g around a corner doing 160 km/hr means the corner must have a radius of over 200 metres! That's a pretty big corner. Maybe I'm just a pansy heheh. I haven't taken a look at my speedo mid-corner, maybe I'll ask a passenger to check next time!

    You're right, most corners are very conservatively signposted, but I once heard from an acquaintance a while ago that corners are signposted based on visibility around the corner, and not on whether the car has enough grip to go around the corner. Not sure about this though. However, I did come across a corner once where it was signposted 80 km/hr and visibility was fantastic, but it'd have been suicide to attempt anything above 100 around it due to how tight it was.

    130 over 50 is closer to 2.5 than 3, but you're right, it's still going pretty darn hard. I guess it depends on how well you know the roads, and corner. I'm quite conservative if I don't know the corner perfectly. Though, that corolla sportivo that locked up into that tight lefthander up greenhill rd and nearly lost it whilst trying to keep up with me 2 days ago should've been a tad more conservative!
    Take the long way home....

    - 306 gti6

  18. #18
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I agree that corners appear to be signposted on visability, rather than cornering abilities of a car.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    I know the engine overheated, the water boiling out of the catch tank cap was an indicator. The oil temp never got out of control, but it was rising. I checked the oil today and there was enough in there, and it hadnt gone white-ish (thank god!).

    I think it might have been the thermostat staying closed (i'll replace that anyway).

    That and i'm pretty sure the voltage regulator is askew, my tailights dim when i turn my headlights on proper, and the fan gets weaker too (this can't be normal?).

    Oh, and my fuel gauge worked for a moment today until i turned the engine over... So its either the sender or something has gone really weird in the electrics to cause all these crazy errors (like the bouncing water temp with indicating). Maybe an earth? No other dials are affected...

    My radiator fan was running after i turned the engine off, so that's not the cause of the overheating white stationary.

    Anyway, i'm going to get a haynes manual for it and take the water pump/thermostat apart and have a looksee. After performing the duty in a mk2 golf gti it can't be that hard (damned power steering...).

    Oh, another thing... My steering gets quite heavy after i rotate the wheel about 90 degrees, at any speed. I suppose thats due to the caster?
    Last edited by Cubits; 23rd March 2004 at 02:21 AM.

  20. #20
    XTC
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    Just think of it as adult lego/mechano, everything has it's place and there is a place for everything .... at least it's not like a surgeon working, they have to do everything with the engine running !!!

    - XTC206 -

    PS: there is heaps of 205 advisers here ... if you need help don't be surprised if one of them drives 500kms to be there !
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
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    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubits
    I know the engine overheated, the water boiling out of the catch tank cap was an indicator. The oil temp never got out of control, but it was rising. I checked the oil today and there was enough in there, and it hadnt gone white-ish (thank god!).

    I thought it might have been the thermostat staying closed (i'll replace that anyway), but that rattling sound seems more like the water pump than the exhaust (sounds on the right and forward, most noticeable around 3k and louder under load).

    That and i'm pretty sure the voltage regulator is askew, my tailights dim when i turn my headlights on proper, and the fan gets weaker too (this can't be normal?).

    Oh, and my fuel gauge worked for a moment today until i turned the engine over... So its either the sender or something has gone really weird in the electrics to cause all these crazy errors (like the bouncing water temp with indicating). No other dials are affected...

    My radiator fan was running after i turned the engine off, so that's not the cause of the overheating white stationary.

    Anyway, i'm going to get a haynes manual for it and take the water pump/thermostat apart and have a looksee. After performing the duty in a mk2 golf gti it can't be that hard (damned power steering...).

    Oh, another thing... My steering gets quite heavy after i rotate the wheel about 90 degrees, at any speed. I suppose thats due to the caster? And my steering wheel sits slightly rotated left.. :/

    Geez, i hope i haven't bought a lemon. The safety certificate said it was all clear, but you know how dodgy those guys can be ($$). The guy who inspected my car spelled it peugot...
    As was pointed out,
    check the thermostat, replace with a correctly rated one.
    Most radiators only survive about 5 yrs or so and hence you could be facing a blocked radiator. Theromo fan... did it come on? Is your ignition timing correct?

    rear end flick..., as Darren pointed out, could be due to tyres, about 34psi (cold !!!) at the rear and no more than 35 at the front, and how deep are the thread grooves? Maybe you just aquaplaned at the rear?

    Good luck with the car. Dont despair, the purchase was worth it if the body is ok.
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  22. #22
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    grab a pair of your missus' stockings and place some in the top hose of the radiator and check periodically

    this will ensure a radiator stays pretty close to clean for a long time
    3 x '78 604 SL

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  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    Cubits:

    When you have the car at the mechanics ask him to check (or get an auto elec. to check) whether there is a 'leaky' earthwire. Cos I had the same problem with mine also a 1987/88 car. Before I had the leaky earth wire fixed all the guages will tend to read a little high....all except the fuel guage which read little low.

    I found it hard to turn when the steering is over 90 deg also when I first picked up the car. Back then I just wish I don't have to park on the top of multi-storey carparks or lowest of the multi storey carparks. Anyway back to the steering thing.....I checked the susupension and the rack to see where is the stiffness to turn more than 90deg is coming from .....until one day I notice my tie-rod ends was perished....after reading an article on an UK 205 forum. I replace both tie-rod ends and the difficulty to turn more than 90deg has gone and now it is only really hard to turn after 1 revolution and at parking speed.

    '87 205s GTis without power steering certainly requires more effort to turn than the lesser power variants and you planning to put on some wider width tyres like 195 or greater expect the steering to be even harder to turn at parking speed.

    Give the radiator a thorough check to see whether there are any blockages...if so fix it!! Makes sure your thermo fans are working too and comes on at the right temperature.

    A lot of 205 Fellow froggers here will have a lot more experience than I, so follow their suggestions/ recommendations too. I can only tell you what I had experience with my 205 (in terms of troubles) since my ownership of about 5 years.

    Cheers
    Billy
    Stock '87 205 GTi
    Stock '98 306 GTi-6

    -Memories are good only if you don't have to deal with the past.-

  24. #24
    Member pugly's Avatar
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    mix your own coolant, don't use pre mix

    make it very neat, you have an all alloy engine, and it ain't pritty when you get corrosion around the sleeves

    back flush it and change the coolant every year

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Cubits's Avatar
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    Where is the thermostat located? I think it may have closed (it doesnt hurt to check). My engine fan was running after i stopped the engine, so i know that hasn't let go yet.

    When i do that, i'll flush the block too. I take the plug off the bottom of the radiator, and the top plug... flush with water. Then refill and bleed the system. I also have some radiator draino on hand that i may push through it for half an hour before flushing again and replacing with coolant. Anything else i should know about that?

    Aside from that the water pump actually seems fine. I'm sure i would have noticed easier if it was that which let go. I have to fix a hose joint which let go slightly under the pressure of overheating.

    I think i know what i have to do, but i can't see anything in that overcrowded bonnet, and my haynes manual wont be delivered for a week. :/

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