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Thread: AL4 issues

  1. #26
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    Having read through this thread, and without having any personal knowledge of these gearboxes at all, I would conclude that replacing the switch as a good ratio of price to possible success. If the 'snow mode' and 'normal mode' differ only in how the computer controls the box, then that suggests the problem is not the box.
    As several have pointed out, non contact in plugs and switches does and can cause Limp mode. I imagine replacing the switch is, on the scale of options, not too difficult. Assuming one can be obtained.

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
    Hi Khman. Have you made any progress with your AL4 fault diagnosis? Have you decided to replace any components? I am interested in a status update.
    Sorry to reply so late, I haven't check the forum those last weeks.

    The problem is still there, but I had other issues with the car that were more urgent...
    I had a warning about low brake fluid level on the car, top up and 2 days later... the same, no more brake fluid. The mechanic had to change the brake master cylinder and brake booster...costed me $800...

    Now I have the antipollution fault every time I start the car, and a small oil leak... I'll drop the car at the mechanic next week for those 2 issues, and I think I'm gonna sell the car.
    Very comfortable, quiet, cheap to drive but I think not well maintained by previous owner, so now I have too many issues with it...

  3. #28
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    Update:

    Antipollution fault comes from the catalytic converter --> quoted $1250 ...

    Oil leak comes from the oil filter housing --> quoted $300...

    Now looking for another car on gumtree, avoiding as much as possible car dealers...
    Always bought privately in France (4 cars)--> never had real issues with cars, except maintenance and age
    Bought one at a dealer in Australia --> spent $1000 in the first 5 months of ownership (oil leak and another oil leak).
    Bought two privately in Australia--> just need to change the original battery (7 years old) for one and battery+fuel pump for the second one (23 years old)
    Bought this one at a dealer --> transmission, brake, oil leak, catalytic converter...
    I never had any oil leak in France in 16 years and nearly 400 000 km...and now in Australia 3 oil leaks in 2 years and 70 000 km...

    No more dealer for me, and it will most probably be Toyota, Nissan or Mazda... Peugeot are good, but spare part are by far too expensive to take the risk to buy an old one here, and I can't afford a new one.

  4. #29
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    The thumping gear change Khman mentions sounds like the same thing I am experiencing with my 2006 206. Car starts off in 1st ok but flares and won't change up to 2nd. Then after a pause, thumps into second, the force of said thump determined by engine speed at the time. In my case, the issue disappears when the engine/transmission reaches normal operating temperature. At full temp all changes are perfect. Car only cost me $500 so with not much to lose I partially dismantled the box & replaced the E2clutch pack, pressure reg & lock up solenoids and also used/flushed with the ESSO ATF recommended. Note, prior to this partial rebuild, car would only engage 1st & reverse. Checked, cleaned & tested the the multi-function switch first but it looked and belled out fine.

    To change from 1st to 2nd, the transmission needs to engage the E2 clutch (the clutch for 2-3-4th gears) which requires a considerable amount of ATF pressure working against two very strong spring plates. The fact that both Khman's car & my 206 will change into 2nd and therefore engage the E2 clutch seems to me to mean that the pressure regulator solenoid isn't necessarily the problem. If ATF pressure was the problem how would it all of a sudden develop enough to 'slam it into 2nd'. I've been thinking maybe the filter clogs up over time and messes with ATF flow. Crazy putting the filter in the middle of the tx Pepe !!! Leaning more towards software/ ECU/TCM issue now so might throw a few dollars at a real mechanic lol and see if we can find out more. Any suggestions for a mechanic Sydney Nth area (but will travel) that can update firmware etc would be greatly appreciated.

  5. #30
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    Default Speed Sensor & Multi Function Switch

    Hi Khman

    I have a similar vehicle, and have uncovered a fault that causes the engine to stall. This is different to your symptoms, but offer it as you have asked the question if there are any other speed sensors. When idling it would run rough then stall. Took it for a drive, and the engine was losing drive, loosing power, jerking, as if starving for fuel. P0336 Engine Speed Sensor signal Coherence. Good at least something tangible. In my mind this code seems to fit my symptoms, The engine speed sensor will be used for ignition timing and RPM, which will then be used for fuel injection.

    I am very intrigued about the Multi Function Selector Switch, This seems to have the potential of affect the inputs to the CPU, that may therefore cause an in appropriate CPU output.

    I defer to others here, but I support your logic regarding the ATF fluid change, if the gearbox operates correctly in Snow mode, then I don't suspect the ATF.

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    im a new 307 owner so only learning this beast. I rang a Peugeot dealer here in Adelaide(Wayville) who told me the trans oil doesn't need ever servicing for the life off it. I cant get my head around that one, he said if you want we will drop the pan refill and check for codes and charge $290 but .. he stated it was really a waste off time. my regular trans guy said special oil required about $250 ... just for my reference what is special about the oil semi synthetic or full synthetic??? im used too aussie car requirements ..thanks guys

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by loopie View Post
    im a new 307 owner so only learning this beast. I rang a Peugeot dealer here in Adelaide(Wayville) who told me the trans oil doesn't need ever servicing for the life off it. I cant get my head around that one, he said if you want we will drop the pan refill and check for codes and charge $290 but .. he stated it was really a waste off time. my regular trans guy said special oil required about $250 ... just for my reference what is special about the oil semi synthetic or full synthetic??? im used too aussie car requirements ..thanks guys
    Wow!!! That from a Peugeot dealer - I'm staggered

    From what I have seen and experienced the old sealed for life chestnut could well be responsible for many AL4 premature failures!!

    You can do a DIY transmission oil change for around $50.00 using Penrite FS ATF which has now proven to improve shifts in many circumstances.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  8. #33
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    thanks buddy for that use full info, penrite full synthetic FS atf. I cant believe the guy ive trusted for many years doing my trans service is pissin in my ear.. ill look into this more. HOW many people have replaced penrite in their trans??? my car is a 2004 307 2litre petrol,,, Are these trans the same as every auto EG drop the pan and refill but still old fluid is in the convertor, so is it recommended too service again once the penrite has mixed in thanks ray

  9. #34
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    There's a drain plug on the bottom. That's where you let the naughty oil out. The nice oil goes in the fill plug at the top readily identified with an 8mm SQUARE centre hole for removal and refitting.

    Oil level is checked with the motor hot and idling. You unscrew the level check plug inside the drain plug and let it run to just a few drops.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    There's a drain plug on the bottom. That's where you let the naughty oil out. The nice oil goes in the fill plug at the top readily identified with an 8mm SQUARE centre hole for removal and refitting.

    Oil level is checked with the motor hot and idling. You unscrew the level check plug inside the drain plug and let it run to just a few drops.
    This was posted by Richo but subsequently lost in the forum crash a while back. It refers to a series 1 Citroen C5 but much is relevent to any AL4 or DPO transmission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richo
    Remove the under tray assembly. On mine, 10mm bolts and 4 slotted screws.



    Here's where the drain plug and filler level tube are located. Yes, your car too should be as clean as this one.



    The drain and oil level plug looks like this when removed. Use a 27mm ring spanner, it isn't too tight. Remember that when you are replacing it to the tranny.



    Here are the tools required.
    Slotted screwdriver
    10mm socket or ring/open end spanner
    27mm ring spanner
    35cm of extension for the filler plug removal, for removal of filler plug from above
    8mm square socket or key steel.
    Infrared Thermometer - Bit of a wank really, trans needs to be very warm to touch on refill. In other words at operating temperature.
    Funnel, at least 38cm long with a base diameter no greater than 14mm.





    This is the location of the filler plug, it's right behind the transmission shift selector rod and cable. It is a little easier if Drive is selected prior to starting the job.



    Here's the filler plug, 8mm square hole. A piece of key steel, or the material of your choice, a snug fit is what you seek. Don't lose the copper sealing washer.



    Hope this helps someone in the future. It isn't a difficult job, but necessary for the health of the AL4 transmission. Sealed for life...yeah, right !

    richo
    Quote Originally Posted by Richo
    The oil in my AL4 after 70,000ks looked dirty. A darker colour, in the grey hue. Not completely shagged, certainly not burnt or bad smelling.
    After settling and sieving, a rare earth magnet trawling, the tiniest of sparkles remained in the oil tray. So bloody small I couldn't capture an image.
    I really had to look hard...hey if I were panning for gold I wouldn't have seen sparkles as small as this, or so few.

    The drained fluid in volume totaled 3.10 litres precisely.
    I refilled with 3.5 litres precisely, to be sure.
    I measured 0.4 litres in the tray after the oil level check.

    After the refill and having ran the engine for ten minutes, as well as shifting through the gears a dozen or so times, the transmission casing was still not hot. The ambient air temperature was 16 degrees C.
    I took the car for a 10 minute drive up the usual hill and down the familiar dale. THEN I did the level check and replaced the level plug when the dribble ceased and it became drips.
    The transmission case temperature was at that time 47 degrees C. That's after 20 minutes in total of running.

    Driving is no different, shifts are still smooth on the upshift, you can feel the downshift ( more noticeable is the increase in engine revs ) from 4th to 3rd, probably a little more on the 3rd to 2nd shift than any other. Consider this a critical description.
    Thanks Richo

    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5001.jpg   AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5002.jpg   AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5005.jpg   AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5007.jpg   AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5008.jpg   AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5010.jpg  

    AL4 issues-autotransoilchangec5014.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  11. #36
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    Opening this again - terribly sorry everyone!

    As far as AL4's go, this one is as good as they get, smooth shifting, no limp mode BUT the 2007 C4 with only 70k on the clock is having this same issue as the OP.. delay engaging first.

    After being driven for about 30-45 minutes, regardless of speed and conditions, engaging first gear won't engage straight away with about a 3 second delay, this is followed by a loud thud and large kick from the gearbox. When accelerating again before the gearbox has been able to engage first, it'll roll as if it is essentially in neutral.. slowing down to engage reverse also has the same effect as I believe 1st and R share the same solenoids. Like the OP, no mechanic has been able to reproduce the problem (god damn it). Through it's life the box has had transmission oil 24 monthly with the proper AL4 PSA oil.

    So this problems (on my mothers car) has apparently been an issue for about 18 months now, at first on and off. I originally thought it may be the lower solenoids, unlike the third gear solenoids, but that doesn't seem right. After reading here I suspect it may be the multifunction switch or speed sensor on the actual transmission.

    IS there a conclusion for whats causing this issue? ie parts wise (please don't be $$$ frenchy)

  12. #37
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    It could be the multifunction switch but check that tge dash display shows lever is in 'D' and not still showing 'N' or 'R' as this will definitely not help engaging 1st gear straight away. When driven in manual mode is it still operating with the same qwerk as may be the valve body detent not adjusted correctly if the the solenoids where ever changed or checked...my 5 cents

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  13. #38
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    Sorry, i phrased my comment poorly. When coming slowing down or coming to a stop, downshifting from higher gears into first causes the issue. The dash always shows the right gear, P, N, R, D1,2,3,4. The solenoids have been checked after putting Renault DPO oil in causing the transmission to go into limp mode about 40,000km ago, that hasn't happened since.

  14. #39
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    Can you feel the converter lockup kick in. Feels like another gear between gear shifts.

    This is where Tony pipes up.

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    Last edited by dimistyle; 4th October 2017 at 08:40 PM.

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    Sorry just realized you said there was DPO fluid in the box. Was this flushed out with 3 correct fluid changes? Could be the valve body needing a full clean now as there is sludge stuck inside. VBs cause most the iratic gear shifts.

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louisb View Post
    Opening this again - terribly sorry everyone!

    As far as AL4's go, this one is as good as they get, smooth shifting, no limp mode BUT the 2007 C4 with only 70k on the clock is having this same issue as the OP.. delay engaging first.

    After being driven for about 30-45 minutes, regardless of speed and conditions, engaging first gear won't engage straight away with about a 3 second delay, this is followed by a loud thud and large kick from the gearbox. When accelerating again before the gearbox has been able to engage first, it'll roll as if it is essentially in neutral.. slowing down to engage reverse also has the same effect as I believe 1st and R share the same solenoids. Like the OP, no mechanic has been able to reproduce the problem (god damn it). Through it's life the box has had transmission oil 24 monthly with the proper AL4 PSA oil.

    So this problems (on my mothers car) has apparently been an issue for about 18 months now, at first on and off. I originally thought it may be the lower solenoids, unlike the third gear solenoids, but that doesn't seem right. After reading here I suspect it may be the multifunction switch or speed sensor on the actual transmission.

    IS there a conclusion for whats causing this issue? ie parts wise (please don't be $$$ frenchy)
    the problem in your AL4 is the 2 sealing rings at the end cover part number 2215.15
    if you will continue to drive it in this condition and every time it will get hot and the 1st won't engage you will brake the F3 Brake bend

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khman View Post
    Update:

    Antipollution fault comes from the catalytic converter --> quoted $1250 ...

    Oil leak comes from the oil filter housing --> quoted $300...

    Now looking for another car on gumtree, avoiding as much as possible car dealers...
    Always bought privately in France (4 cars)--> never had real issues with cars, except maintenance and age
    Bought one at a dealer in Australia --> spent $1000 in the first 5 months of ownership (oil leak and another oil leak).
    Bought two privately in Australia--> just need to change the original battery (7 years old) for one and battery+fuel pump for the second one (23 years old)
    Bought this one at a dealer --> transmission, brake, oil leak, catalytic converter...
    I never had any oil leak in France in 16 years and nearly 400 000 km...and now in Australia 3 oil leaks in 2 years and 70 000 km...

    No more dealer for me, and it will most probably be Toyota, Nissan or Mazda... Peugeot are good, but spare part are by far too expensive to take the risk to buy an old one here, and I can't afford a new one.
    Khman,

    what model is your car?

    The oil filter leak may just be the oil filter cover not fitted properly...


    Ewan

  18. #43
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    Ewan new OP Louisb posts 36 and 38 with a different issue.

    Khman sold his Pug and bought another brand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    It's not that many kilometres, so the transmission should be OK with respect to simple wear.

    I'd suggest the basic procedure to follow, would still be the same as for commonly reported faults. I am presuming the car has received all software updates due to it, and the engine itself is not recording any faults.

    First try three replacements of the fluid, maybe a fortnight between each change.
    If no success, you would replace the upper two solenoids with new items.
    Should there still be no change, a replacement valve body is next, these are cheapest bought from overseas.
    Last option is the most invasive and costly - repair of the transmission unit.
    Are the solenoid and valve body replacements DIY'able or should an automatic specialist be used? I have never worked on an auto gearbox before.

    Where is the best/cheapest place to source the parts required?

  20. #45
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    With the correct tools, oil and instructions it can be done at home. Information on AF or web if searched. Pm me your email address and I can send you a pdf which has been distributed all over the web. Other than torx and 8mm square drive no other special tools just time. Look up ATX on Alibaba. Michelle has been my contact.

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  21. #46
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    Sorry for the delayed reponse -

    So I had the output speed sensor on the transmission replaced last week at the yearly service, i'm thinking it might be too soon to say but car seems to be driving SO much better, it hasn't dropped into limp mode at all, it seems to be shifting much smoother like a warm knife in butter apart from when cold, much more responsive with gear changes (never used drop gears or climb gears like it does now) at the right time.

    Many issues on this this car has currently stem an absolute shoddy service undertaken at a supposedly 'French car mechanics' in Melbourne in 2013.. Previous to this I never had any issues with this car. The car was (over)filled with a semi-synthetic 15w40 instead of the usual 5w40/30 from dealers and other specialists causing some pretty bad idling and poor start up behaviour, AL4 transmission was filled with Renaultmatic D3 syn instead of the proper semi-synth PSA stuff - this meant the car to go into limp mode the for the first time the day after the service and all the poor behaviour relating to the gearbox and lockup since the change. On top of this the fuel strainer/filter on top of the tank under the rear seat came off completely after being changed and let out all the fuel resulting in the RACV calling fire brigade to clean up the roads.. leading to it's first breakdown. Oh, and I was spoken too like an imbecile by the mechanics in which they suggested a week later that i'll need a fuel system and solenoids replaced, by them. At the time the car was 5 years old and had less then 40k on the clock.

    My regular pug dealer changed the trans fluid, changed the oil and checked over everything a week later.

    I'll keep this forum updated on how the transmission goes under some more driving, after years of hopeless gearshifts, limp modes and no lockup i'm hoping it's now finally fixed - and all it took was an cheap output speed sensor.
    Last edited by Louisb; 27th October 2017 at 05:05 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Thanks mate - will watch what happens with the new speed sensor, this'll be the next change on the transmission.

    As for the three ATF flushes to get the Renaultmatic crap out, these were done a week after the incident.

  23. #48
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    Few months has passed since replacing the output speed sensor and the issues are still remaining..

    After driving for about 40 minutes or so, coming to a stop and downshifting into first is followed by a (few second) delay/slipping which then sends a thunk through the cabin when first engages.

    1: since 2012, it's been maybe four times a year the transmission drops into 'limp mode'. It's a 2006 build car and i've been trying to avoid changing solenoids.

    Does anyone know when PSA began fitting AL4's with the updated solenoids?

    2: regarding the AL4, before I change these parts; what exactly do the 'sealing rings at the end cover part number 2215.15' do?

    3: Any other ideas that could be causing the issues above?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Louisb; 8th January 2018 at 04:18 PM.

  24. #49
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    Dont open the end cover as this opens a world of pain for the home DIY unskilled.
    If the end cover is to be opened the clutches should be replaced at the same time.
    There is a french car auto mechanics on the forum in Melb see if you can track Tony down.

    The 2215.15 are installed in the later model AL4 with the later valve block. They are just seal differences with less pressure loss due to overlapping seals. No one knows why the change or if any shifting difference can be achieved.


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