Can timing cause overheating in a 505?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Icon9 Can timing cause overheating in a 505?

    Hi all,

    A couple of questions, for all with knowledge

    How much, can ignition timing affect the temp of an engine running?? ie could that be the cause of my engine overheating??

    But there is no pinking etc, noise from the engine at revs below 4000. But will pink above 4000 or so, but did so before over-heating was an issue....

    OK, now the next question is, what could cause the timing to be so far out/ screwed in general?? Dizzy cap is 2years old, same with leads and spark plugs are about a 1000kms old.


    Fairly, sure radiator isn't blocked, ie cleaned out of car 4 times. No crap in oil or coolant, engine runs fine (not under-powered) will run OK then hot, then cool a little then up the temperature will go. Seems very on off type thing.

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    My only other thought is water pump slipping or something, don't really know much about the pump and how it works??


    Thanks

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Yes, retarded ignition can cause this, but if it is detonating above 4000
    it would be doubtful it is retarded at 2500.
    Thermostats are always suspect in overheating cases.
    When you " clean" the radiator, are you saying the tanks came off and a
    steel rod was pushed up the cores. If not, scale on the inside of the tubes
    insulates the coolant from the metal in the tube preventing heat transfer.
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    Tadpole fat 505's Avatar
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    hi again jono,

    my 505 is doing the exact same thing as you described.
    i think alan has hit the nail on the head with what he has said.ive got a sneaky that it is the thermastat that is playing up on mine.just need some time to cheak it out!
    also the fuel mixture if too lean cnn also make your car run hot but i dont think this is the case.
    Last edited by fat 505; 15th March 2004 at 05:18 PM.

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    WLB
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    Jono,

    I've had 2 similar problems on different cars at different times.

    The GTI S2 as the viscous fan clutch was on the way out. Must have been gripping most of the time but occasionally letting go. Very annoying overheating that lasted only for 10-15 mins and disappeared again. Able to be controlled, luckily, by whacking the heater on full-bore and opening the sunroof to avoid frying. It was summer. It finally died and identified. It would start pinking as the temp went up. Although it does pink on acceleration sometimes; but that's another story.

    Overheated randomly, a long time apart. Temp gauge would occasionally rise a bit on right-hand bends, and fall again on the straight. Fell faster going straight into left-handers. Very puzzling but never got hot enough to be a real problem. Got sick of it and took the tanks of the radiator. There was a big chunk of crud in the bottom RH tank. Occasionally it must have drifted over and blocked off a few tubes.

    Warwick.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Icon9 Overheating...

    Quote Originally Posted by crosspug
    Hi all,

    A couple of questions, for all with knowledge

    How much, can ignition timing affect the temp of an engine running?? ie could that be the cause of my engine overheating??

    But there is no pinking etc, noise from the engine at revs below 4000. But will pink above 4000 or so, but did so before over-heating was an issue....

    OK, now the next question is, what could cause the timing to be so far out/ screwed in general?? Dizzy cap is 2years old, same with leads and spark plugs are about a 1000kms old.


    Fairly, sure radiator isn't blocked, ie cleaned out of car 4 times. No crap in oil or coolant, engine runs fine (not under-powered) will run OK then hot, then cool a little then up the temperature will go. Seems very on off type thing.

    My only other thought is water pump slipping or something, don't really know much about the pump and how it works??


    Thanks

    Jono
    Hi Crosspug....
    I have a car that had a severe overheating problem when I first got it. I took it to a performance specialist who performed a "cashectomy" on my wallett to the tune of $50.00 to connect my car up to a computer to diagnose the problem....and then another $50.00 to reconnect it after the job was done to confirm that it was all fixed.
    It was in the same s#itfull mess after all this was done and paid for, so keep away from the experts , no matter how much spare cash you have to throw away.
    It turned out to be that in the past some idiot had removed the distributor , and replaced it ....but they were ONE tooth out when they re-fitted it. This meant that even when the distributors position was all the way around into advance...it was still RETARDED....the car's onboard computer tried valiently to correct for the ridiculous setting it was struggling under...but the car overheated to the point that the electronics in the distributor would cook and shut down. So she would just cut out after any drive for longer than 35 minutes...in any direction...in any traffic ...in the middle of winter...in Melbourne!!
    Now that the distrubutor is correctly set up the car is COMPLETELY like new...powerful to the MAX..and reliable. I could drive it anywhere across Australia with confidence that I'd get there and back...without missing a beat.
    So if I were you I'd replace the thermostat, get the radiator cleaned or replaced...and make sure the distributor is actually set up correctly.
    Also, check your spark plug heat range is correct.
    Cheers...George.

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    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WLB
    Temp gauge would occasionally rise a bit on right-hand bends, and fall again on the straight. Fell faster going straight into left-handers.
    My gauge does exactly the same thing. I think it's more to do with gravitational forces acting on the gauge itself, rather than an indication of the temperature going up and down.

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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies,

    I figure I'll get the radiator out yet again and try to get the tanks off the sides, have previously just used a high pressure hose to do this cleaning.


    As the A/C doesn't work I might remove the condenser etc as well free up some air flow around the radiator


    Tested the thermostat again, is fine just as I suspected. Although had the annoyance of snapping one of the thermostat housing bolt/screws off as I was doing it up....... but all fixed now. Just waded through the mountain of bolts etc that came off my old car and found one.....

    A) Got any hints on how to remove said side tanks on radiator??

    B) Any idea if those radiator cleaner (acid/ and non-acid) actually help of hinder??


    Thanks again

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosspug

    B) Any idea if those radiator cleaner (acid/ and non-acid) actually help of hinder??


    Thanks again

    Jono

    oh they help alright
    if the car is pushing a few years i'd advise against it unless you want to replace a head gasket

    i wonder if you blocked one side of the rad up then poured the stuff in with water and top it up and let it soak if it would do anything then flush out afterwards ?

    saves it going through the motor and possibly killing a head gasket
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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    i wonder if you blocked one side of the rad up then poured the stuff in with water and top it up and let it soak if it would do anything then flush out afterwards ?
    Well, I think I'll give that a go, see what I can get out of the bloody radiator..........

    Jono
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosspug
    Well, I think I'll give that a go, see what I can get out of the bloody radiator..........

    Jono
    hi Jono, todays radiators are made with plastic tanks clamped in place. Once thay were all made with brass tanks soldered in place. It was pretty easy to get a blowtorch and heat up the solder..then the tank would just drop off. Pretty easy to resolder it on with a blowtorch too. But these new ones, I think you just have to replace the radiator. There might be a way to remove and refit the tanks but I don't know how they do it. Possibly urethane or something.
    I once removed the tanks on a radiator and then I was able to clean out all the crap that was in the tubes...much of it was grease and oil.
    If you can't remove the tanks , try running kerosene or even some petrol through it to clean it out, then hose it out under pressure too, to remove all the kero/petrol etc.
    Cheers...George.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by silverexec
    My gauge does exactly the same thing. I think it's more to do with gravitational forces acting on the gauge itself, rather than an indication of the temperature going up and down.
    That's exactly what it is... the centrifugal force of the cornering sends the gauge one way in left handders, the other in right handers. It's been the same in every Pug I can recall in the past twenty years, maybe longer.

    No gauge moves that quickly from airflow cooling the water... it might be a visible move, but it's sure a slow move.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    403 guages don't tend to move and the later cars are good to as they don't move either

    it's everything in between that has the guage move as you go one way or the other

    the first time i ever saw one do that i thought what the...........

    then i grew used to it and let it be so long as it was normal in a straight line

    the only time they don't tend to move when cornering is when they are still cold from just been started

    i must say 604's seem to have the most floaty guage of them all
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  13. #13
    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    That's exactly what it is... the centrifugal force of the cornering sends the gauge one way in left handders, the other in right handers. It's been the same in every Pug I can recall in the past twenty years, maybe longer.

    No gauge moves that quickly from airflow cooling the water... it might be a visible move, but it's sure a slow move.
    No, it wasn't inertia. That was my first thought, but the needle was leaning into the corner. And it was slow, only showing up in sweeping, sustained bends, and it didn't always happen. It didn't happen before on either of the 2 diesels, and it hasn't happened since the radiator was replaced.

    Old gauges were calibrated voltmeters. Moving coil or magnet armatures. The current sent to them by the sender moved the needle. They are very sensitive and responsive. Later gauges are thermally operated. The current from the sender heats and expands a wire which moves the needle. Less sensitive and slow to respond, but the needles can't flog around as they are held tight. A good example is the fuel gauge. It creeps up slowly when turned on and doesn't move in response to the cars movement. The old ones move around as the fuel slops around in the tank. From memory, and it's been a while, 403s had the former and 404s had the latter. However, the 403 had tiny needles, so it wasn't really obvious. Very noticable though on old Holdens.

    Warwick.
    Last edited by WLB; 17th March 2004 at 01:42 PM.

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    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th
    hi Jono, todays radiators are made with plastic tanks clamped in place. Once thay were all made with brass tanks soldered in place. It was pretty easy to get a blowtorch and heat up the solder..then the tank would just drop off. Pretty easy to resolder it on with a blowtorch too. But these new ones, I think you just have to replace the radiator. There might be a way to remove and refit the tanks but I don't know how they do it. Possibly urethane or something.
    I once removed the tanks on a radiator and then I was able to clean out all the crap that was in the tubes...much of it was grease and oil.
    If you can't remove the tanks , try running kerosene or even some petrol through it to clean it out, then hose it out under pressure too, to remove all the kero/petrol etc.
    Cheers...George.
    The tanks on 505s are brass (not sure about very late models) but don't try sweating them off yourself unless you really know what you're doing. You can do enough damage to make it difficult to get back on again. It's not that expensive to get a radiator repairer to take them off, rod out the tubes and refit the tanks. You need the right amount of heat over a large area and a good deal of control. If not you can end up with holes, melted fins, solder in the tubes, and so on. And you need to leak test under pressure afterwards.

    Warwick.

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    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Well, had the radiator out and its now back in, couldn't get the tanks off as I'm not that good with a blow torch last time I checked (messy...).

    But everything in reach not in the water pump was checked again and cleaned via high pressure hose (outside the engine bay)......

    Ran Okish for the 20-30 mins drive I just did, but the temp guage was floating all over the place when going round corners, and enigne temp when going straight, changed a fair amount highish but not overheating per se.

    This is with the thermo fan constantly on.

    Will drive around this week, and see what happens.....

    Might try my other dash cluster next week when I can pick it up, might be a stuffed temp guage, but will play with the sender on friday to see if thats the problem.

    On topic how often do you see the impellors on a water pump corrode etc away leaving a lack of flow??


    Thanks again

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jono?Crosspug's overheating problem

    Having done LOTS of work on 505s over a 20 year period, here are a few clues. (Please excuse any posting errors, this is my first message posted on this or any forum) Ahem....... %05s have a welsh plug in the cylinder head directly behind the water pump, which has a habit of coming out, as a result of corrosion (somebody running it without corrosion inhibitor, or topping up same with tap water, which is an electrolyte) SO.......First, take out the thermostat and run car. If you think it overheats, and that it's not various forces on the car when its cornering,acting on the guage itself, you might like to take it past a friendly mechanic who has a temperature reader/thingy which can take the temperature of the car JUST BY BEING POINTED AT IT. Takes 1 second. They will point it at the engine, radiator, engine outlet (thermostat housing), and other places. The radiator won't be hurt by a cleaner being run thru it, if you follow the directions properly, and flush it later. Was the car run for some time with tap water in it? If so, suspect radiator . Otherwise, the welsh plug. These can be replaced in situ, by someone who's done it before, preferably. Because of corrosion, you probably can't trust the new one to stay pressed in, so the way Pug repairers do it up here, is to use 2 self-tapping screws, inserted into the column on the left side of the hole thus exposed(around2 inches wide), thus holding in the new plug (which for that matter can be a bit of aluminium sheet you yourself cut to size). Then check the pump impeller for clearance !! The aforementioned column, by the way, is what one of the front cylinder head bolts goes thru. It's perfectly ok to use this----the local repairers have been doing it for donkeys years. After all this, put a "radiator sock" in your top tank....it'll collect all the crap that WILL continue to come out of your cooling system. A stocking (used so much on 504s) didn't work on my 505, as it must have had the baffle removed from the side radiator tank, thus altering the flow pattern. Radiator repairers not familiar with pug505s do this sometimes. It has one because it's a crssflow radiator with top and bottom sections. The baffle is on the drivers side. That's all..(pant pant....this one-fingered typing is getting to me!) Beano PS Timing won't affect the temp much at all. Pinking in Pugs is often caused by the head being shaved too much over the years, but can be accomodated for by retarding the timing (rotate distributor clockwise to retard, then anti till it pings on hills......and don't tighten the collar on the bottom of the dizzie too much....it'll snap......but no great drama if it does. Pinging sometimes also happens when one of those small pollution control rubber hoses comes adrift and sucks air, causing a lean mixture
    Quote Originally Posted by crosspug
    Hi all,

    A couple of questions, for all with knowledge

    How much, can ignition timing affect the temp of an engine running?? ie could that be the cause of my engine overheating??

    But there is no pinking etc, noise from the engine at revs below 4000. But will pink above 4000 or so, but did so before over-heating was an issue....

    OK, now the next question is, what could cause the timing to be so far out/ screwed in general?? Dizzy cap is 2years old, same with leads and spark plugs are about a 1000kms old.


    Fairly, sure radiator isn't blocked, ie cleaned out of car 4 times. No crap in oil or coolant, engine runs fine (not under-powered) will run OK then hot, then cool a little then up the temperature will go. Seems very on off type thing.

    My only other thought is water pump slipping or something, don't really know much about the pump and how it works??


    Thanks

    Jono

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Beano's Avatar
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    Default Re: overheating /pinking on 505

    of work on 505s over a 20 year period, here are a few clues. (Please excuse any posting errors, this is my first message posted on this or any forum) Ahem....... %05s have a welsh plug in the cylinder head directly behind the water pump, which has a habit of coming out, as a result of corrosion (somebody running it without corrosion inhibitor, or topping up same with tap water, which is an electrolyte) SO.......First, take out the thermostat and run car. If you think it overheats, and that it's not various forces on the car when its cornering,acting on the guage itself, you might like to take it past a friendly mechanic who has a temperature reader/thingy which can take the temperature of the car JUST BY BEING POINTED AT IT. Takes 1 second. They will point it at the engine, radiator, engine outlet (thermostat housing), and other places. The radiator won't be hurt by a cleaner being run thru it, if you follow the directions properly, and flush it later. Was the car run for some time with tap water in it? If so, suspect radiator . Otherwise, the welsh plug. These can be replaced in situ, by someone who's done it before, preferably. Because of corrosion, you probably can't trust the new one to stay pressed in, so the way Pug repairers do it up here, is to use 2 self-tapping screws, inserted into the column on the left side of the hole thus exposed(around2 inches wide), thus holding in the new plug (which for that matter can be a bit of aluminium sheet you yourself cut to size). Then check the pump impeller for clearance !! The aforementioned column, by the way, is what one of the front cylinder head bolts goes thru. It's perfectly ok to use this----the local repairers have been doing it for donkeys years. After all this, put a "radiator sock" in your top tank....it'll collect all the crap that WILL continue to come out of your cooling system. A stocking (used so much on 504s) didn't work on my 505, as it must have had the baffle removed from the side radiator tank, thus altering the flow pattern. Radiator repairers not familiar with pug505s do this sometimes. It has one because it's a crssflow radiator with top and bottom sections. The baffle is on the drivers side. That's all..(pant pant....this one-fingered typing is getting to me!) Beano PS Timing won't affect the temp much at all. Pinking in Pugs is often caused by the head being shaved too much over the years, but can be accomodated for by retarding the timing (rotate distributor clockwise to retard, then anti till it pings on hills......and don't tighten the collar on the bottom of the dizzie too much....it'll snap......but no great drama if it does. Pinging sometimes also happens when one of those small pollution control rubber hoses comes adrift and sucks air, causing a lean mixture [QUOTE=crosspug]Hi all,

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