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    Default Old Frogs

    All good and well that we have the chat about new frogs but does anyone still have an interst in old frogs

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    403's are still an all time favourite of mine

    203's i like but not as an everyday car

    404's i really can't find the time of day for them

    after that we are getting into more modern pugs
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    in agreeance there 404's pug405mi16 and i branded the ugly car and yes although there are a couple you missed like the 202 for example and no i'm not talking the favourite holden motor

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    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Ahhhh yes, the ugly car.....

    I am a fan of 504's, 204's and sometimes 403's....mainly like the early French ones the best with the bolt on hub caps etc...

    Ben
    1989 Peugeot 405 Mi16
    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
    1973 Peugeot 504 GL





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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    of course the 202 but that was never really sold in any numbers here unlike the 203 onwards

    the only problem with the early cars up to the mid 70's 504's was rust. any american car of the same era was able to withstand the elements much better

    french steel took a long time to get up to acceptable standards and yet the 403 seemed to weather better than the 404

    the 404 always was a soft car with flat panels that dent easily

    the 404 was never a pretty car in my opinion where as the 403 albeit older looked much better and i also felt the 403 felt better on the road over the 404

    the 504 on the other hand was a big step for peugeot

    it was a totally new car that sat lower, had 14" wheels and a slightly bigger motor. floor change and IRS. still had basically a 404 instrument cluster to which peugeot held onto till the end of the 504 run
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    I like the 504.

    I honestly don't care for any others. 505's are nice but a little boxy.

    I would only get a newer pug because of the aircon.

    I like the car because of its build quality, not necessarily because its a peugeot.

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    yes .. should have just keept on building the 504... lol

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
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    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie
    yes .. should have just keept on building the 504... lol
    They still do--in Kenya!

    Actually, I quite like "the ugly car". I never used to like the looks, but I do now. I also love my 403, and I quite like 504s and 604s too.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
    404, project
    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

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    we've had many old pugs and some new pugs in the family. everything including a 203, a 403 wagon, a 404, many 504's, 2 505's one which is my dads current daily driver, a 205 which is my current car, and a 306 that is my mothers car, all of which i can say are great cars in difrent ways. 203's that were a great for there time. perfectly proportionate and weight balanced with two batteries. the 403's which were a great that stood up to anything. 404's, which i have nothing good to say about. 504's which are still great cars, that handeling wise still compare favourably to modern cars. 505's built ontop of the 504 chasis but with a slightly more modern aproach and in my opinion just as good a car as a 504. 205's which are in my opinion the best hatchback of there time, and have the world rally championships to back it up. and the 306 which is my favourite hatch at the moment, even though i love the 206 and am warming to the 307. if i had to make a choice as to what car i would prefer to drive, it would be a hard choice, but i would either be driving a 205 which is my current car or a 505
    Last edited by orestes; 14th March 2004 at 02:39 AM.

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    For me it's a 404 any day... they are fantastic, much better to drive than a 504.

    The 203 was similarly better to drive than the 403, not that there was ever much wrong with the 403.

    I've owned all of them as everyday cars, rallied them, driven them hard and fixed them. I know what they are all about... and I don't mind the shape of the 404 either.

    Shobbzy... one day you'll get real lucky and I'll let you have a real drive of the 404... but after it's got the Kugelfischer 2-litre and BA7/5 in it, which I reckon will make it a near perfect driving car.

    'rambo's dislike for the 404 is unreasonable, methinks... 'soft'? They are a strong motor car, every part of them except the rear crumple zone. Highly necessary to withstand the rear attacks they were likely to suffer because they had such good brakes!

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    When were you guys born?
    The 404 is actually the stand-out car. The difference between it and nearly everything else remotely near it in price at the time it was built, and for many years after, was enormous. The jump from 403 to 404 was much bigger than from 404 to 504. It's only ugly (to some) in hindsight. Compare it with the other Pininfarina finned jobs of the era. Only the Fiat dated more slowly.

    What the 404 can do in the areas of ride and handling is amazing, considering what it does it with. Here is a car with no significant technology, no innovation, nothing really clever, just engineering practices that had been around for quite awhile, but put together in one package by some poeple who really understood the dynamics of the whole thing. It's still my favourite. "Road & Track" (or was it "Car & Driver") magazine in the US in 1968, voted it one of the 10 best cars ever built, regardless of price. And it was already nearly 10 years old.

    I suppose for me, there hasn't really been anything particularly interesting built since the '70s. It had to happen. We had to control pollution and improve crash safety, but with it came alot of blandness. New cars are better by a mile (sorry, kilometre) but there is something missing. The pack has caught up, or at least is much closer. There are no truly crappy cars made anymore. And anyone who says otherwise hasn't driven a standard Austin A90 or Datsun 120Y.

    The average car maker now doesn't have the engine or chassis genius in the design office. They have a committee that can send the car off to Bosch to get a computer to control the engine, suspension and brake shortcomings.

    I like driving late model cars but I'm more fond of cars which enable great expanses of road to be seen when you open the bonnet and look down past the engine.

    The difference between the abilities of the 406 and the Commodore are small compared to the gulf between the 404 and the FB Holden.

    Shut up Warwick, you're starting to rabbit on.
    Sorry.

  12. #12
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    Default Old Peugeots

    Between my Dad and I we've owned 5 - 404s and 2 - 504s. The first Peugeot in our family was the 404 KF2 Injection sedan, leather seats. It was the best car my Dad ever owned. It did rust becasuse it lived in Montreal Quebec for 3 years and then in acid-rain plagued Southern Limburg (NL) for three more before he traded it for a 1972 504.

    He regrets getting rid of the 404 to this day, as the 504s were not as reliable, though quite good cars in their own right. The 72 504 had problems with rust too despite a comprehensive Dinitrol treatment, and when it was 5 years old there was a rust hole in the trunk (inner wheel well). The ZF automatic blew a week after he traded it in to the dealer (that was a laugh, seeing their faces when they told him about that)! Also, this car ate window winder handles, they were breaking all the time! The vinyl seats cracked in minus 30 degree weather, along with most of the other plastic bits. Clearly not a car made for the CDN climate.

    The next 504 was a 1977 sedan CDN model, gas guzzler, weighed 180 kg more than the steel bumpered versions (20 MPG in the city, barely) even with the 4 speed. It also had lots of little bits falling off it from time to time, such as the trapezoidal headlamp lenses (really, they just dropped off one day, onto the huge rubber bumper, which kept them from breaking), heater controls, what have you...

    We've both always liked the 403 from afar but have never had a chance to drive or own one. It's a more solid-looking car than the 404.

    I think that the nicest-looking Peugeot of the period 1948-1979 is the one in my garage, the Pininfarina-built 404 Coupé. The bodyshell is incredibly strong, having 404 Cabriolet reinforcements below and a permanent roof. Mine also has the desirable Injection engine (I know some people poo-poo KF injection, but these people are seriously misguided). It's a beauty and the 1618 cc KF2 engine is Peugeot's best IMO. The 504 C cars were good-looking too but somehow the rear overhang sometimes looks excessive on them, sort of a much more minor version of the 407's problem, with its Jimmy Durante schnozz-like overhang

    The car I've enjoyed driving most in my life is the 404 Coupé with KF2 injection. They have good roadholding with the proper XAS tires, good transitional response, unparalleled road noise isolation (FAR better than any modern car, bar none), quite acceptably rapid acceleration (0-80 MPH in a tick or two over 20 seconds), ~110 MPH top speed, good fuel economy. The Thermostable drum brakes are larger than those of a 2500 kg Lincoln Continental of the same vintage, stop the car amazingly well and the front linings typically last over 120,000 miles. People who don't know what the 404 Coupé is often ask if it's a Mercedes - it has a lot of road presence.

    I am surprised with the negative comments about the 404. I wonder if those who don't like the 404 have much experience driving them. These cars are fantastic, strong, decent looking, fun to drive.... Plus it's the car that single-handedly vaulted Peugeot into the upper echelons of international rallying success. Flimsy cars just cant do that. The 403 was good too but lacked the power to compete. On the other hand, the 96 HP 404s were redoubtable rally weapons and beat the pants off all comers throughout the world in the toughest rallies.

    Had the 403 been offered with a fuel injected engine it might have been a more prominent car...but then its three bearing engine probably would not have reliably supported a boost of 20 HP (as Peugeot found out with the first of the three bearing injected 404s, produced in 1962-1963). Also, the 403 suspension layout was pretty archaic, although it seemed to work really well. It is generally similar to that of the 1930 201....

    For a fair assessment of the 404, you should look at the press accounts of the day. The 404 was considered at the time to be the best family sedan in its class, by a fair margin. Road & Track in the USA used to rate them very highly too, calling them at one time one of the world's seven best-made cars. This at a time when motoring magazines actually were more than just marketing arms of the manufacturers who advertised within them (ahh, nostalgia).

    The 504 was also considered to be a pretty good motor car, though few people really got used to the odd-looking rear end, which was one of Pininfarina's less delicate jobs.

    Old Peugeots interest me much more than new ones. Also, I doubt that modern Peugeots are as trouble-free as the 403 and 404. The joys of multiplexed wiring seem to be flummoxing Peugeot's electrical engineers, and this marque, which in the 1950s and 1960s had one of the highest reputations for reliability and quality, has fallen to near the bottom of the pack in this regard. Of the models made at the moment, only the 406 sedan and especially the beautiful 406 Coupé really would interest me, though I could go for a 206 or 307 CC if I felt like taking a gamble on quality. The 407 is just some sort of a chimeric pastiche and I doubt it'll ever be seen as good-looking. In fact, this month's CAR magazine has a good parody of the 407, calling it a 406 mated with some long-nosed muppet character

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    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by M. Tippett
    The first Peugeot in our family was the 404 KF2 Injection sedan, leather seats.

    The Thermostable drum brakes are larger than those of a 2500 kg Lincoln Continental of the same vintage, stop the car amazingly well and the front linings typically last over 120,000 miles.

    The 404 was considered at the time to be the best family sedan in its class, by a fair margin. Road & Track in the USA used to rate them very highly too, calling them at one time one of the world's seven best-made cars.
    Ah yes, the KF injections. My Dad's still got a '74 504 TI, but still wishes he still had his '67 404. Properly designed drums can easily out brake poorly designed discs. Bad discs set-ups can fade.

    I think you're right, it was one of 7, not 10. I used to have a copy of the magazine but somewhere, a long time ago I lost or misplaced it.

    It's all to do with soft, long travel suspension, properly tied together. A good chassis design created from a starting point of good tyres, and body roll doesn't equal poor cornering grip. Rover twigged to that in the late sixties, and it took 4WDs in a new direction. Once body roll became associated with poor handling it became almost impossible to get good ride on a bad road. Luckily we have fewer bad roads these days. As good as they may be, I've seen a couple of 405s (one written off by the insurance co.) that have hit potholes at speed, bottoming out and breaking the sump. A 404 would have made a couple of moderately loud ker-ponks noises, and if it didn't damage a tyre, press on regardless with barely a ripple inside the car.

    Now I'm not saying we should go back. We can't, and in some respects don't need to. Roads are better. We expect better interior appointments. But those were the days. There used to be some fanastic cars, and they weren't all expensive.

    Warwick.

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    My grandfather imported Peugeot's into New Zealand in I believe the '50s and '60s.

    Not having seen them personally my father tells me about their wonderful 404 with pigskin leather.

    I guess we are lucky old Peugeot's haven't suffered over-inflated prices and the sedans are still accessible to most people. The same can not be said for other European brands, such as BMW, Mercedes etc, where classic examples are worth a lot. This does not mean the BMW or Mercedes has better engineering or will be more reliable/better built. To me it is is brand perception, the German car will be worth more simply because of the mainstream public perception.

    I bought my 4 speed 1977 504 Ti for $850NZD. With a current warrant of fitness, and at the last warrant of fitness a month ago still had no structural rust. I fitted another Kugelfischer motor as the original cracked a piston and had a worn clutch, so for a little over $2000NZD I have a classic French car that will go on for years to come hopefully.

    And the practicality! Aside from sitting in city traffic, nothing phases it. Climbing kerbs, low level flooding, deep pot holes, impacts, nothing can stop the lion. My car even rolled into a Civic, taking it's whole bumper off, leaving merely scratches on the 504.

    So I suppose it is a combination of family history and accesbility that has got me into Peugeots.

    Everyone I meet who recognises the car mentions it's superb strength, just yesterday someone commented on how they had owned one and that they 'go forever'.

    I have noticed some people have a dislike for modern Peugeots. I see where they are coming from but don't share their belief. My first car was a 309 SR and whilst it was not as solid on the surface for sure, it rattled a lot but it was not that weak underneath. It was undeniably a more 'nimble' car around very tight corners, where as the 504 feels more composed through high speed gradual bends. New Peugeot's may be a bit rattly, but they still handle better than most cars and are still reasonably well built underneath.

    People critise the lack of ability to climb deserts and cross Africa with new Peugeots, but we live in a new market people. Peugeot need to focus on sharp handling and 'urban' looks.

    Anyway, I love this kind of classic Peugeot discussion. It's one of the reasons I love this board and and reinforces why I love classic Peugeots in general.

    I apologise for his most likely pointless rant.
    Last edited by Louis; 14th March 2004 at 07:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WLB
    Now I'm not saying we should go back. We can't, and in some respects don't need to. Roads are better. We expect better interior appointments. But those were the days. There used to be some fanastic cars, and they weren't all expensive.
    I've felt that it would be nice to go back sometimes too, you know, if only they made the 404 still, but with modern anti-corrosion treatments (mainly, galvanising) and sealants. But the 404 - for all its charms - has its problems too, such as poor aerodynamics of the sedan (the Coupé is definitely better), so why would you re-introduce a car that wastes fuel due to its shape. And then there's the question of pollution control and the fact that no engine controlled by analogue injection is likely to meet anything near modern pollution limits...

    But we were tantalisingly close a year ago when a design competition by Peugeot almost resulted in a "404 CC" show car being built, ooh that would have been glorious!

    But it's fun to daydream about it sometimes, and also fun to occasionally get behind the wheel and relive the 1960s (I was only a little kid then, in case you're wondering...), to see the smiles on the faces of the older generations who still remember....

    Cheers
    Mike
    Last edited by M. Tippett; 14th March 2004 at 07:09 PM.

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    its intresting to see people speak of the 404 with such high regards. i have allways thought of it as "the ugly pug" and haven't thought much good of it. maybe we had a bad example, but i know for us we wish we'd never sold our 403 wagon as parts, to get the 404. the 404 we owned, had a lot of faults as compared to our 403, 9 times out of 10 it wouldnt start without being crank started, and in our opinion was never as mechanicly sound as to 403. we put our 403 wagon through hell driveing it up dirt tracks which had washed out pot holes that were sometimes more then a metre deep, or driveing it through flood water that would be seat high inside the car, and the 403 stood up to it without skipping a beat. so from what i've expereinced the 403 is the much nicer car, but not haveing a lot of 404's in the family we may be mistaken
    Last edited by orestes; 15th March 2004 at 05:35 AM.

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    i have owned both 403's and 404's and have done quite a few miles in both and the 403 was always the most pleasant to drive it just lacked power

    as most peugeots through the years they always needed the power from the following model

    the 203 was ok but put a 403 engine in and they were better
    the 403 was a bit harder to do as there wasn't a simple swap to be made

    the 404 needed the 1800 or 2L but then it ran out of ratios

    as for bodies the 403 to me is a stronger body and the doors always sound more solid than a 404

    the sills can and do rust in a 403 but they do in 404's as well

    403's didn't seem to break in the back end like the 203's did but neither of them in a ute was very strong where as the 404 in a ute wasn't a bad ute structurally
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes
    its intresting to see people speak of the 404 with such high regards. i have allways thought of it as "the ugly pug" and haven't thought much good of it. maybe we had a bad example, but i know for us we wish we'd never sold our 403 wagon as parts, to get the 404. the 404 we owned, had a lot of faults as compared to our 403, 9 times out of 10 it wouldnt start without being crank started, and in our opinion was never as mechanicly sound as to 403. we put our 403 wagon through hell driveing it up dirt tracks which had washed out pot holes that were sometimes more then a metre deep, or driveing it through flood water that would be seat high inside the car, and the 403 stood up to it without skipping a beat. so from what i've expereinced the 403 is the much nicer car, but not haveing a lot of 404's in the family we may be mistaken
    I think the 404 was probably the best looking Peugeot until the 505. The 403 looks great from the front but terrible from the rear.
    A 404, however needs to be dead straight, preferably in a dark colour, have all of its stainless trim intact, sill panels fitted and most importantly not have chrome headlight rims.
    The 404 has a line that runs from the rear fins to the front of the headlight rime, fitting chrome rims breaks this and makes the car look clumsy.

    Graham Wallis

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    WLB
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    as for bodies the 403 to me is a stronger body and the doors always sound more solid than a 404
    Yep, there was a huge difference in the weight of everything. The 404 arrived at that time when they started to realise that strength could be achieve by means other than panel thickness. As a consequence, you got more easily dentable panels. Probably because Peugeot had such long model runs (Holden gave us a completely new body every 2 years), they probably really skipped a generation when going from the 403 to the 404 as far as body construction went.

    Now you could walk up the bonnet and across the roof of my FJ without bending anything. Now there was a car! Obsolete, bloody awful handling, semi dangerous by today's standards,............. but I wish I still had it. Dad replaced it with a 404, then I did the same thing years later. Sigh!!!

    Warwick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WLB
    Yep, there was a huge difference in the weight of everything. The 404 arrived at that time when they started to realise that strength could be achieve by means other than panel thickness. As a consequence, you got more easily dentable panels. Probably because Peugeot had such long model runs (Holden gave us a completely new body every 2 years), they probably really skipped a generation when going from the 403 to the 404 as far as body construction went.

    Now you could walk up the bonnet and across the roof of my FJ without bending anything. Now there was a car! Obsolete, bloody awful handling, semi dangerous by today's standards,............. but I wish I still had it. Dad replaced it with a 404, then I did the same thing years later. Sigh!!!

    Warwick.
    The panels dented easier because they were flat, the same thickness
    metal was used in both. The 404 and 403 were nearly the same weight the 404 being a bit lighter because it was a little smaller.
    The first RWD Peugeot to use thin panels to save weight was the 505. It also used thinner glass and overall the effort worked very well, only 1250 kg for what still a very strong car. I've yet to see a 505 crack in the windscreen pillars like the 504 is prone to do.

    Graham Wallis

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    ah yes 505 cracked pillars i know of one that was cracked i side swiped a guard rail with it the car should have been written off but was repaired after i sold it but the cracked pillar that resulted was never repaired and is still there today

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    The panels dented easier because they were flat, the same thickness
    metal was used in both. The 404 and 403 were nearly the same weight the 404 being a bit lighter because it was a little smaller.
    The first RWD Peugeot to use thin panels to save weight was the 505. It also used thinner glass and overall the effort worked very well, only 1250 kg for what still a very strong car. I've yet to see a 505 crack in the windscreen pillars like the 504 is prone to do.

    Graham Wallis
    Sorry Graham, I was actually speculating but it didn't read that way. Interesting how body shape affects the perception of what is underneath. Take the current Nissan Patrols. Extremely heavy and tough looking bodywork but having doors made of tissue-thin steel.

    Warwick.

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    404's rule OK. cane toad

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    I'm with the toad.

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    The 404 wagons look good - so do the utes. The cabriolet is gorgeous too. I agree the dark coloured sedans look best.

    For me the '67 404 with the C3 box was the ultimate. Incredibly flexible - smooth and quiet with brilliant economy. Drove beautifully in every department. I've also owned a 1.6 Kugelfischer and it wasn't bad but I do think the C3 was better than the BA7.

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