Another 404 tyre/wheel question
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Thread: Another 404 tyre/wheel question

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    Default Another 404 tyre/wheel question

    I suspect that this has been done to death in previous fora, but the usual searches have not produced precisely what I need to know, so I apologise in advance if I am being a nuisance.

    I am in final stages of ground-up resto. of a 1970 404. Am planning widening of rims to give better choice of tyres. My immediate priority is fast road work with limited dirt road use, priority being adhesion in wet and driving qualities , not mileage/price.

    Will build second set of wider wheels later for rally/light truck tyres for any bush bashing planned.

    1:

    I have not been able to find specs ( offsets etc ) for wider wheels on standard 404 suspension

    Top of tyre quite close to strut with current 175's, so could see need for any widening to be out to outer side rather than symmetrical, but wonder about effect on steering and general dynamics.

    Lots of people have gone this way before so I suspect that there is a standard recipe, but haven't been able to find it. Would be grateful for any advice on this.

    2:

    5.5" rims or 6.0" rims? Am aiming to expand array of available tyre sizes, as range available for 4.5" rims is restricted

    3:

    Any suggestions as to particular tyres that are around in Oz/Melbourne at the moment with which people have had particular success? ( bearing in mind my priority for grip over mileage/price )

    Would be very grateful for any comments

    Many thanks

    Andrew

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    I used 180 HR-15 Michelin XAS on my first 1967 404 Coupé Injection and yes it did come close to the strut bottom seat and also would rub at full lock on the inner fender/chassis rail (I think it was one side only, due to badly done one-side-only toe resettings and resetting of the steering wheel), but on 4.5 inch standard rims, these tires were brilliant.

    I will be getting some of these for my present 404C when it is restored. They also have the advantage of beneficially affecting the gearing, and raising the top speed to 178 km/h at 6000 RPM. Again, these fit on standard rims. Despite the 180 mm nominal tire width, the actual section was 175.

    The tires are from Michelin Classic so are not cheap, at $260 US each.
    Last edited by Mike Tippett; 23rd March 2015 at 04:00 AM.
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    Andrew,
    I have a set of 404 wheels which were made by using 404 centres and Early Volvo 164 15" safety rims. These are 5.5" wide and allow 175- 185 tyres to be fitted comfortably. The safety rim factor is preferable in my opinion when fitting tubeless tyres.
    Had the extra width almost all on the outer due to the strut / steering ball joint positions.

    With 185 15 Michelins tubeless tyres the unsprung weight of the wider wheels was slightly less than that of the 165 15's with tubes. Ride is a little smoother , pressure need to be maintained to keep steering load light, no ill effect on feedback/ feel.

    Would imagine that you'd not be wanting to go too wide with your tyres if wet road grip is a vital factor.

    Cheers

    John

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    Thanks to John and Mike for the comments.

    My thoughts are moving roughly this way, although Michelins can be slow to get and are expensive in Oz. Looked at XAS's for my DS recently and couldn't afford either the delay or the price. Am prepared to spend more on Pugsley though, as this is main current priority.

    Some have been critical of XAS's in Australian conditions, although I am currently running Michelin 175 x 15 nd have been happy enough.

    I was pplanning to probably put most of the extra 1-1.5" to the outside. Do you have the exact offsets you used John?

    Am using Newway in West Heidelberg for the wheel rebuild , so they may well know, having done a few before.

    Agree with not going too wide - not really necessary and can look odd, while possibly compromising wet performance. Also need to avoid the liquorice strip look.

    Many thanks for the advice

    Andrew

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    Andrew,

    A long time ago I had on my 404 sedan 6 inch rims with 185/15 tyres (Semperit - not sure if they are in Aus anymore)? I had no problem with clearance on front struts. Rear mud guards required a little modification to stop the tyres rubbing.

    Ian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Watkins View Post
    Thanks to John and Mike for the comments.

    My thoughts are moving roughly this way, although Michelins can be slow to get and are expensive in Oz. Looked at XAS's for my DS recently and couldn't afford either the delay or the price. Am prepared to spend more on Pugsley though, as this is main current priority.

    Some have been critical of XAS's in Australian conditions, although I am currently running Michelin 175 x 15 nd have been happy enough.

    I was pplanning to probably put most of the extra 1-1.5" to the outside. Do you have the exact offsets you used John?

    Am using Newway in West Heidelberg for the wheel rebuild , so they may well know, having done a few before.

    Agree with not going too wide - not really necessary and can look odd, while possibly compromising wet performance. Also need to avoid the liquorice strip look.

    Many thanks for the advice

    Andrew

    A few things:, none of them particularly 404 specific (I haven't driven a 404 with widened rims)

    1) It sounds as if all of your widening will be increased offset. So, the risk is that this will make the steering crabby, prone to following camber & unsettled by single wheel bumps. So I'd widen to the minimum extent needed for the tyre size you choose.
    For these reasons I'd not widen to 5.5" (far less 6"); I'd limit the exercise to 5" (the minimum required for the below recommended tyre size). Of course if you are using the standard centres, then this demands donor wheel rims of a well depth that can mate with the centres' diameter & it might well be that you can't get that in 5" & the more common 5.5 will be forced on you.

    2) I suppose that it's obvious that you'll get double ridged safety rims but be aware that you could, if you wished, safely fit tubeless tyres to your existing rims. You are not stuck with tube-tyre tyres & should,indeed, avoid them if you can (detail on request). One option is to fit 185/70-15 (ok on 4.5") & there are some tyres available in this size which would certainly beat the Xas on wet grip (detail on request). These preserve original gearing. If there is rubbing with these, then the solution is a thin "spacer" style ring which is precisely judged in thickness to just give you clearance & which can be cut from sheet steel to suit & tack welded to the inside of the rim as a useful reinforcement (3-stud wheels tend to flap a bit in the unsupported 120° arc). Picture of a 5 mm plate one on a Renault wheel is attached.

    3) Your car is geared for 165/80-15. If that gearing is to be modified (& it doesn't have to be to go wider - see above), then I suggest that longer gearing which increases top speed is the wrong way to go & you'd enjoy the change more with shorter gearing which improves acceleration. I propose such a (mild) modification which has the merit of giving you a choice of some decent wet grip tyres which would still be as crisp in response as your favoured Xas. The size is 185/65-15. These would undergear the car by a very moderate extent, about 3.6%. Hardly an issue I would have thought.
    The (non Australian specific) issues with the Xas are wet grip in both emergency braking & avoidance situations, snappy behaviour at the limit & aquaplaning in very wet conditions. One can be quite happy with tyres in situations where not much is demanded of them but if one can do better (& in this case, that's easy), then one should. 185/65-15 gives you access to three fairly decent wet types: the Conti EcoContact3 or 5 & the Pirelli P1. None is first rank but nor are they 10th rank like the Xas (& they'd be much cheaper). (Undergear a bit more to 175/65 & you could get a first rank wet tyre, Conti's PremiumContact 2.) There are other choices too.

    hope this is a useful input to your deliberation

    cheers! Peter

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    Default Another 404 tyre/wheel question

    Dear Peter

    Many thanks, very useful.

    I have seen 205's used on a 404 and it was said to drive well, but am loath to go this wide

    Your comments about size/aspect ratios and availability are very useful. The 404 is currently wearing Michelin XVS's, which have been pretty good but which are , as you say about the XAS's , a bit snappy at the limit.

    I could undergear a bit, especially in this benighted land in which one has trouble getting away with cruising at 160, although I shall probably have solved any acceleration issues with installation of an injected 404 motor.

    I have run the Michelins successfully without tubes for years, so agree with what you say on this.

    I am leaning to your suggestion of 185-65/15 although would be interested in specifics of the good tyres available in 185/70 - I looked through this recently in the search for tyres of the DS and was unable to find anything very appealing, but this may reflect my ignorance. Problem is also that tyres in this size range do not attract reviewers' attention so there are not many reports as to what they are really like.

    The spacer on the renault wheel looks like a good solution. 404 wheel centres are said to be prone to cracking when hammered, so this may have wider relevance, as I would like to keep the three stud wheels for some semblance of originality.

    Many thanks for your comments


    Andrew

    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    A few things:, none of them particularly 404 specific (I haven't driven a 404 with widened rims)

    1) It sounds as if all of your widening will be increased offset. So, the risk is that this will make the steering crabby, prone to following camber & unsettled by single wheel bumps. So I'd widen to the minimum extent needed for the tyre size you choose.
    For these reasons I'd not widen to 5.5" (far less 6"); I'd limit the exercise to 5" (the minimum required for the below recommended tyre size). Of course if you are using the standard centres, then this demands donor wheel rims of a well depth that can mate with the centres' diameter & it might well be that you can't get that in 5" & the more common 5.5 will be forced on you.

    2) I suppose that it's obvious that you'll get double ridged safety rims but be aware that you could, if you wished, safely fit tubeless tyres to your existing rims. You are not stuck with tube-tyre tyres & should,indeed, avoid them if you can (detail on request). One option is to fit 185/70-15 (ok on 4.5") & there are some tyres available in this size which would certainly beat the Xas on wet grip (detail on request). These preserve original gearing. If there is rubbing with these, then the solution is a thin "spacer" style ring which is precisely judged in thickness to just give you clearance & which can be cut from sheet steel to suit & tack welded to the inside of the rim as a useful reinforcement (3-stud wheels tend to flap a bit in the unsupported 120° arc). Picture of a 5 mm plate one on a Renault wheel is attached.

    3) Your car is geared for 165/80-15. If that gearing is to be modified (& it doesn't have to be to go wider - see above), then I suggest that longer gearing which increases top speed is the wrong way to go & you'd enjoy the change more with shorter gearing which improves acceleration. I propose such a (mild) modification which has the merit of giving you a choice of some decent wet grip tyres which would still be as crisp in response as your favoured Xas. The size is 185/65-15. These would undergear the car by a very moderate extent, about 3.6%. Hardly an issue I would have thought.
    The (non Australian specific) issues with the Xas are wet grip in both emergency braking & avoidance situations, snappy behaviour at the limit & aquaplaning in very wet conditions. One can be quite happy with tyres in situations where not much is demanded of them but if one can do better (& in this case, that's easy), then one should. 185/65-15 gives you access to three fairly decent wet types: the Conti EcoContact3 or 5 & the Pirelli P1. None is first rank but nor are they 10th rank like the Xas (& they'd be much cheaper). (Undergear a bit more to 175/65 & you could get a first rank wet tyre, Conti's PremiumContact 2.) There are other choices too.

    hope this is a useful input to your deliberation

    cheers! Peter

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    Never seen cracking in 404 wheels, the earlier 403 wheels were bad for this, around the area pressed to retain the hub caps.
    What size XVs, never seen these in 165 15.
    If you were to buy new XAS I think they would be fine, I think a lot of people are relating experiences with 30 year old tyres.
    404s I drove back in the day felt wonderful with them on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Watkins View Post
    Dear Peter

    Many thanks, very useful.

    I have seen 205's used on a 404 and it was said to drive well, but am loath to go this wide

    Your comments about size/aspect ratios and availability are very useful. The 404 is currently wearing Michelin XVS's, which have been pretty good but which are , as you say about the XAS's , a bit snappy at the limit.

    I could undergear a bit, especially in this benighted land in which one has trouble getting away with cruising at 160, although I shall probably have solved any acceleration issues with installation of an injected 404 motor.

    I have run the Michelins successfully without tubes for years, so agree with what you say on this.

    I am leaning to your suggestion of 185-65/15 although would be interested in specifics of the good tyres available in 185/70 - I looked through this recently in the search for tyres of the DS and was unable to find anything very appealing, but this may reflect my ignorance. Problem is also that tyres in this size range do not attract reviewers' attention so there are not many reports as to what they are really like.

    The spacer on the renault wheel looks like a good solution. 404 wheel centres are said to be prone to cracking when hammered, so this may have wider relevance, as I would like to keep the three stud wheels for some semblance of originality.

    Many thanks for your comments


    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Watkins View Post
    Thanks to John and Mike for the comments.

    My thoughts are moving roughly this way, although Michelins can be slow to get and are expensive in Oz. Looked at XAS's for my DS recently and couldn't afford either the delay or the price. Am prepared to spend more on Pugsley though, as this is main current priority.

    Some have been critical of XAS's in Australian conditions, although I am currently running Michelin 175 x 15 nd have been happy enough.

    I was pplanning to probably put most of the extra 1-1.5" to the outside. Do you have the exact offsets you used John?

    Am using Newway in West Heidelberg for the wheel rebuild , so they may well know, having done a few before.

    Agree with not going too wide - not really necessary and can look odd, while possibly compromising wet performance. Also need to avoid the liquorice strip look.

    Many thanks for the advice

    Andrew
    Andrew,
    I don't have the exact measurements, but clearances on strut and steering knuckle were close to standard.
    I feel the 5.5" wheels that are fitted to one of my 404's look the part and they work quite well with no nasty side effects. They will still fit under the rear guards nicely. I'd be looking at 175 tyres instead of 185's. I have 175's on both standard and 5.5" 404 wheels (mostly to achieve a rolling radius which is closer to the original Mich 'X').

    This thread got me thinking about the 403 I had years ago...I'd replaced the standard 4" rims on that with 403 wagon 5" rims welded onto the three stud centres. They were heavy wheels though.

    thinking a little outside the box...have you considered 16" rims on 404 centres...there must be a broad selection of tyres in 16"...? Not sure what's available as 16" donor steel rims....maybe some of the small JAP 4WD's?

    John

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    [img]dcs01558[/img]


    To the untrained eye this 5.5" wheel looks as if it's original equipment imho
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    I once had some 175/70-15 MXLs on a 404 sedan and with the Injection engine, it ran hard through the gears and cornered well (maybe too well for the suspension design) but was woefully undergeared at 100 km/h. I still have those tires, though now they're 30 years old and hence good for nothing.

    Having run undergeared, overgeared and regular-geared 404s, my preference is for overgeared, hence the 180 HR 15. The 404C handled brilliantly on these back in the early 1980s when the tires were new, and I am sure the same will be true of new ones when I get them for my present 404C.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWS View Post
    Andrew,

    A long time ago I had on my 404 sedan 6 inch rims with 185/15 tyres (Semperit - not sure if they are in Aus anymore)? I had no problem with clearance on front struts. Rear mud guards required a little modification to stop the tyres rubbing.

    Ian.
    I had a similar deal but with Bridgestones.

    Unless you play with the camber, ie file the holes in the strut towers, wide tyres make the steering twitchy and ruin the handling of an otherwise excellent car.

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    Mike,
    I've been using some 175 80 15's..help the gearing considerably.

    John

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    John, that's my plan, the 180 HR 15 XAS are actually 175 section according to Michelin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tippett View Post
    John, that's my plan, the 180 HR 15 XAS are actually 175 section according to Michelin.
    XAS are a tyre well suited to the 404.

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    Default 404 Tyre / Wheels

    Dear Rob

    He is currently wearing 175/15's which have worked well over the years. Have had trouble finding new ones of these.

    You are certainly on the money with comments about old tyres, have had some entertaining experiences over the years and am now quite particular about this point.

    A goodly part of the reason for the bigger rims is to allow wider choice of tyres - not much high quality stuff ( except the Michelin ) available for 4.5" rim and getting these takes time in the city and would be hard in the middle of nowhere.

    Best Wishes

    Andrew

    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Never seen cracking in 404 wheels, the earlier 403 wheels were bad for this, around the area pressed to retain the hub caps.
    What size XVs, never seen these in 165 15.
    If you were to buy new XAS I think they would be fine, I think a lot of people are relating experiences with 30 year old tyres.
    404s I drove back in the day felt wonderful with them on.

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    Thanks to all for a very useful discussion. I think that I may have to take a deep breath and fork out for the XAS's

    Glad also that general advice has been against going too wide, as this confirms my prejudices ( so must be right )

    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Watkins View Post
    Thanks to all for a very useful discussion. I think that I may have to take a deep breath and fork out for the XAS's

    Glad also that general advice has been against going too wide, as this confirms my prejudices ( so must be right )

    Andrew
    I seriously would not do this. My remarks about the Xas are not based upon old experience (although I did have a set on an MG Midget in the 70s).

    I expect that the compounding has changed for the better since it was introduced in the mid 70s but, beneath the PS3, Michelin's compounding reputation & test performance is not very promising if you are interested in wet grip (& you should be). In another tyre thread (in the Citroen forum I think), someone noted that the very limited Euro label wet test score (basically a wet braking test & of a constrained sort for uniformity) has the Xas getting an E. For comparison, most sizes of the Michelin entry level Energy Saver (or ES+ ) get an A or a B & that tyre does not mostly test well as a wet tyre. The Pirelli P1, Conti EC3, EC5 & PC2 are mostly B scoring tyres. All would generally outdo the ES & dramatically outdo the Xas in the wet. Have a trawl around the following site before you make a big mistake.

    Tyre tests at tyrereviews - TyreReviews

    If you look at the top right of the page, you can see : 'by Tyre Brand'. Click on it & you get lists of brands & tyre types so, for instance, go for Pirelli P1 & you'll get user anecdotal comment (to be treated with considerable caution but sometimes patterns emerge) & links to tyre tests in which the P1 features. You won't find the Xas but consider it to be compounded much worse than a Michelin Energy Saver & note how well the latter scores.

    For crabby steering, the issue is not tyre width, it's offset. So be cautious about the transferability of the bad experiences of others to the scenario I portrayed for 185/65. If you nudged the wheel width out to 5" and had offset increase as small as demanded by clearance (get a 185/65 anything trial-fitted to a standard rim just to see how much you'd have to do), I don't think you'd upset steering behaviour to a noticeable extent. I am not talking mega-wide or substantially increased offset in this scenario.

    Why use a poor tyre if you can avoid it, save money (to partly spend on wheel widening, I admit) & not have crabby steering?

    I painted in another 185/70 scenario on standard rims but my memory was awry & the tyres (Toyo 350, Hankook K715 & EX & Kumho KH17 - all better than Xas) I thought I recalled as available in this size, are not. Sorry for the false promise; I had memory traces which turned out to be 185/70-14 or 195/70-15. Looking through the size lists did throw up one neat possibility though: the K715 (which has tested well enough) in 165/80-15.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 24th March 2015 at 12:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I had a similar deal but with Bridgestones.

    Unless you play with the camber, ie file the holes in the strut towers, wide tyres make the steering twitchy and ruin the handling of an otherwise excellent car.
    I noted an earlier post also commenting about wide wheels adversely affecting the 404's handling. I did not ever notice that - and as a young chap - I used to drive the 404 energetically on both bitumen and gravel!

    Ian

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    I lived in Vancouver when my 404 had XAS tires in 180 HR 15 and believe me, it rains a lot there, 200 inches a year. The tires were fine in the wet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tippett View Post
    I lived in Vancouver when my 404 had XAS tires in 180 HR 15 and believe me, it rains a lot there, 200 inches a year. The tires were fine in the wet.
    Mike, it's not a matter of anecdotal report as that doesn't give comparative evidence. Yes they might be "fine" but less fine than some other alternatives in two crucially important scenarios: emergency braking & emergency dodging manoevres. And if, as seems to be so in this case, one wishes to be playful in the wet, then talkative, predictable behaviour as the car is moved around on the limit of adhesion is a merit.

    Again, why wouldn't one choose an alternative & superior option?

    cheers! Peter
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    Whatever. They were fine in the wet and excellent in all other respects, yes including in extreme conditions (I did some tarmac rallies in that car). Seriously, if safety was a top concern, a 404 would not be the car to be driving.
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    Well, if 'whatever' is to be the intellectual level of conversation here, then I shan't bother continuing to respond to you or your remarks.

    For others engaged in the thread, I simply repeat that a case for active comparative choice of the Xas, as opposed to tolerance of it as not too bad, remains to emerge.

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