2002 307 1.6Lt 4Sp Auto - Wont Drive - Purchase Opportunity
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Thread: 2002 307 1.6Lt 4Sp Auto - Wont Drive - Purchase Opportunity

  1. #1
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    Default 2002 307 1.6Lt 4Sp Auto - Wont Drive - Purchase Opportunity

    Hi.

    I have an opportunity to purchase above vehicle, most likely I could purchase at very reduced price. Vehicle has 171,000km, in good condition. Currently un-registered.

    The vehicle has had some suspected transmission problems, that remain undiagnosed to me.

    I suspect that being a 1.6Lt 4 speed auto, it will be fitted with the AL4 automatic transmission.

    I looked at the vehicle this morning and the battery is discharged, and therefore I wasn't able to start the engine and perform some basic tests.

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    The description by the owner is that the vehicle was OK, until problems with the engine/transmission. The symptoms as described to me are:

    When idling at an intersection, the engine stalled, would crank but wouldn't start. Eventually started and was able to drive home.
    Transmission did not seem to change gears properly - its seems from additional questioning of the owner that the it seemed to hold gears longer that it should.

    Had $2k of repairs performed to (I think) the transmission (I can get access to the repair invoice), but problem was not resolved. Repairer (local dealer in Ballarat) then indicated that a transmission rebuild would be required. Owner decided to not spend anymore money on vehicle and de-registered - vehicle now sitting in driveway, and alternative vehicle purchased.

    I would liked to have started the engine, and performed some basic tests, ie did transmission engage in drive and reverse etc. I could drive it up and down the service road to check for at least 1-2 gear change.

    I know the above description of the symptoms are quite vague, but I would be interested if anyone has some experience with these and can recognize a typical symptom and/or resolution from the details above.

    I have the VIN and engine numbers if needed.

    I was considering purchasing and using if for one of my children's vehicles. However a quick check on carsales indicates typical value around $5k. I would need to consider roadworthiness certificate and registration cost, plus anticipated repair costs. I suspect that unless that is a simple straight forward component replacement, that if the repair involved transmission rebuild it would not be worth pursuing.

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    On the face of what you describe, unless a "fully loaded" model it's a $200-$500 car, as is.

    Problems could be anything from wiring issues to the tranny. Plenty of scope for misdiagnosis by the unfamiliar. If you don't have a laptop with Peugeot Planet and relevant experience, suggest it's better to walk away. If the seller was motivated the car would at least have a charged battery, possibly even a new one.

  3. #3
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    Hi thanks. Seller is a friend of my daughter, she has not advertised the car, but I became aware of the situation vie genera chit chat. She is thinking of selling/giving it to the wreckers, as she doesn't know what else to do. Car is in good condition, and I wondered if maybe the problem was incorrectly diagnosed. Obviously it was, as there were transmission repairs, and problem not resolved. As we all know, sometimes an incorrect sensor input signal or poor wiring loom connections may affect the correct operation of the relevant CPU. Or it could also be a transmission that requires a complete overhaul.

    If it was the former, then potentially a good vehicle can be repaired and recovered and replace an existing older vehicle that we have. If the later, then I don't have the time or inclination.

    I might arrange to get the battery charged, and connect a diagnosis PC, to investigate any codes etc.

  4. #4
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    You absolutely need Planet or Diagbox, a generic code reader will at best give a partial result and at worst a bum steer.

    Don't be afraid of the AL4, talk to shanadoo.

    The 307 transitioned from CAN-VAN communication protocol to CAN-CAN (nothing like the Folies-Bčrgere, sadly) and parts swapping by the uninformed can lead to further non-function when it all looks the same.

  5. #5
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    Just to give you some perspective. My daughter bought a 2002 1.6l 307 last year with 95,000km, 9 months rego and roadworthy for $4500. Excellent condition apart from requiring a new timing belt.

    I then bought a 2003 206 GTi with 131,000km for $1600 (flat battery and again needing a timing belt and a couple small items for a roadworthy).

    I would agree it is probably a $200-$500 car in current state.

    You could take a set of jumper leads or a battery booster to try starting it. My 206 also had a flat battery and the owner supplied jumper leads so I could start it up and take if for a short drive. Although there is a small risk of damage to the ECU (or BSI) with using jumper cables, it is not an issue with a car you haven't agreed to buy.

    You might well be able to buy it and part it out for significantly more than you pay for it if it is not repairable.

  6. #6
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    (nothing like the Folies-Bčrgere, sadly)
    And here is me expecting that Peugeot Planet software let's you "get into the pants" of her ECU.

  7. #7
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    Well Rob, I suppose pulling fault codes might be compared to upskirting...

    As to the wrecking option, I would doubt you'd make much parting it out; they are that common. However, the aftermarket supports all wearing parts brilliantly at present and even things like tyres are in a cheap enough size.
    dhaw likes this.

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Have a read through the posts by "shanadoo". He seams to have had a lot of experiance diagnosing these boxes from a DIY perspective.

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/sea...archid=1020393

    There's a few threads in the Citroen he has posted on, but you should find them if you click on the link above.

    seeya,
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    307 1.6 Petrol 4 Sp auto - 2002 production - Location of OBD2 port

    Hi. Looking at purchasing an early 307 that potentially has a problem, was with the Auto, and has had the modulating solenoids replaced by dealer. Seems that the vehicle stalled while idling in drive at intersections, and wouldn't start, then after period of time and several attempts the engines then starts. He done this several times and the owner couldn't rely on the vehicle. It is currently un registered and the owner is currently considering giving it to the wreckers. I borrowed a Lexia to read the codes, but I am embarrassed to admit, I couldn't locate the OBD2 port. On Mrs Whippets 2006 update 307 it is located under the ash tray, but not on this earlier vehicle. I looked all around the fuse box in the glove box, pulled the center console half to pieces, looked under the bonnet in the larger fuse box. I couldn't locate it.

    Came home and googled, seems that is is located in the lower dash near the steering column, I did look around this area but couldn't see it.

    If someone knows where it is located Please let me know.

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    I thought it was under a panel to the right of the steering wheel. Could be a crook memory though.

  11. #11
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    Early ones, it is. Full ninja, a plain black port.

  12. #12
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    Thanks guys - I will go back tomorrow and plug the Lexia in - we will see what it reveals.

  13. #13
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    Yep. Daughter has a 2002 307 1.6 petrol. Location exactly as seasink said.

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
    307 1.6 Petrol 4 Sp auto - 2002 production - Location of OBD2 port

    Hi. Looking at purchasing an early 307 that potentially has a problem, was with the Auto, and has had the modulating solenoids replaced by dealer. Seems that the vehicle stalled while idling in drive at intersections, and wouldn't start, then after period of time and several attempts the engines then starts. He done this several times and the owner couldn't rely on the vehicle. It is currently un registered and the owner is currently considering giving it to the wreckers. I borrowed a Lexia to read the codes, but I am embarrassed to admit, I couldn't locate the OBD2 port. On Mrs Whippets 2006 update 307 it is located under the ash tray, but not on this earlier vehicle. I looked all around the fuse box in the glove box, pulled the center console half to pieces, looked under the bonnet in the larger fuse box. I couldn't locate it.

    Came home and googled, seems that is is located in the lower dash near the steering column, I did look around this area but couldn't see it.

    If someone knows where it is located Please let me know.
    Turn the computer on and lookup the vehicle. It shows you the location of the plug when you select the model and type of car

    if you fire up the computer and load the software....

    Late PSA keys

    it'll prompt you to plug into the plug. if you click the "show location" icon it'll show you a picture of where the plug is:



    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: I forgot to mention, don't connect the computer to the internet (keep wireless switched off) and don't plug in a network cable...... You don't want it trying to upgrade software!
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 16th March 2015 at 04:31 PM.
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    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  15. #15
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    Hi - I did that and it indicated the location beneath the ash tray - I virtually pulled out the lower center console to obtain access, as there was one loom that looked liked it had looped around and I thought the plug was caught and couldn't be pulled out. Sadly not the case. Looked everywhere in and around the fuse box in the glove box, and also in the larger fuse/relay box under the hood. Also in and around the area beneath the hand brake lever on top of the AL4 gearbox DCU. Not Joy anywhere.

    Seems it is under a panel adjacent the steering column. I will try to get there again tomorrow after work and hook up the Lexia - hopefully to reveal all.

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    Whippet, Put a good battery in and clean the terminals, as these Autos require good voltage to them to make them work properly.
    I have a 406 SV wagon and spent ages having a drive problems checked and repairs done with no luck, until a friend who is an electrician (not auto) REPLACED THE BATTERY AND THE CABLES and fixed multiple problems throughout the car, hasn't faulted in ages so did the same to my R25 and WOW it works well now ALSO.
    Who would think look at basic things FIRST

  17. #17
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    Hi. So I finally acquired the 307 this evening. I drove it home on a 7 day permit. Considering it hadn't been driven for several months, I guess it performed OK. I have not driven a 1.6Lt petrol engine 4 S Auto 307 previously, so not totally familiar with it's characteristics. It was a slightly under powered than I anticipate - (my daughter has a 1.6Lt 4S Auto Pulsar N15 - seems to have a little more zip). While overall the auto seemed to change up and down OK, I did notice that under full throttle acceleration out of a turn/roundabout etc, that the transmission seemed to slip with the RPM flaring a little, it would have been in 2nd at the time. Anyway I will take it for a drive on the rural roads near me, and test it a bit more.

    I think that the battery may be unserviceable, after the drive home 15 minutes and idling for say 20mins at home, it would not crank, just clicks. I have left the battery on the charger until tomorrow and see how it comes up. I suspect it wont be serviceable.

    Anyway I will keep you all posted.

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    UNM
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    So what did Lexia show?

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    Hi - I will connect the Lexia that I have borrowed from Shane tonight. Hopefully there will be no surprises waiting. The battery charger was still charging at 6 amps this morning. I suspect that the battery is unserviceable.

  20. #20
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    Default ECU Codes All Clear

    Hi - So I connected the Lexia this evening. I performed a Global Test. Everything was clear with no faults found. I started the engine and checked some live data for engine and AL4 gearbox. Gearbox: Guide pressure 3 Bar, Oil pressure 3.0 Bar, then reduced to 2.4-2.5Bar after the oil warmed up a little 68C. Pressures modulated with load the engine speed, All parameters appeared to be within tolerance. Engine: Coil charge times were all 15mS, should be 2 - 4 mS not sure if this is relevant. Also the canister control valve was Inactive.

    I also performed EVS solenoid valve tests on 1, 2, 3,4, 5 & 6 valves - No faults were written to ECU for later reading. EDPE exchange output solenoid valve wasn't quite right, although I am not sure that this is relevant.

    Started the engine, and then performed a second global test - No Fault identified.

    After 24 hours on the charger, the battery was able to crank and start the engine tonight. I put the charger back on maybe it might desulphate the plates a little.

    There were three other vehicles behind the 307, and was wet and cold, so I didn't bother to take for a test drive. I will try and do this tomorrow evening.

  21. #21
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    Default AL4 slipping in 2nd Gear - is this usual.

    Hi. I took the vehicle for a 40km drive this evening. I wanted to get it fully up to operating tempreture, for both engine and auto gearbox. Also took the opportunity to perform many braking events, as I wanted to wear off the rust from the rotors! It has been parked for several months unprotected.

    The engine seems to be running fine. During full throttle acceleration from standstill the RPM climbed to 6200RPM and changed up dropping back to approx 4000RPM. This seemed to be the sweet spot for the engine. Also I did some drving around a new residential development, roundabouts, and narrow streets: all seems to be in order except for the slipping in 2nd gear.

    The AL4 auto seems to be fine. I operated in Drive and Manual and also Sport and Snow. All upshifts and downshifts are smooth. The only concern I have is that in second gear the engine appears to flare a little, from the 1st to 2nd upshift, as if the gearbox is slipping. This appears to occur during light, medium and full engine throttle situations. The flaring appears to be controlled and the engine RPM doesn't "run away" and keep on climbing. The other thing I noticed is that when in Sport the gearbox wouldn't shift up from 3rd to 4th, even at 120 - 130kmh with a trailing throttle. I had to de select Sport, then Auto upshifted into 4th immediately. then re select Sport and gearbox maintained 4th. Road speed approx. 100kmh.

    I would be very appreciative of comments from froggers who are familier with the AL4 automatic gearbox.

    I reviewed all of the invoices for the repairs and services that were performed. The previous owner was ripped off very badly by the local dealer. At 179,381km the following repair notes:
    When its changing from first to second gear has trouble. Has trouble when dropping back in gears.
    Checked transmission for gear shifting issues. Carried out fault reading and found to have faults for slipping and pressure regulation fault. Suspected electrovalves at fault. Removed and replace valves. Reset auto adaptives and road tested. All OK. Parts: $612. labour $340. Total $1047.


    The vehicle now indicates 180,570km.

    Out of interest the following:
    141,182km - ignition coil - $517
    142,000km?? - engine oil & filter - $252
    142,237 - fuel gauge not working, new fuel sender with pump - $764
    145,444- $189 dedicated service - $260 !!!
    157,908km - 150000km service - $268
    161,402km - 160000km service (plus timing belt, water pump, rotors & pads) - $1,731
    163,365km new fuel pump - $650 - Yikes, wasn't this replaced at 142,237???
    172,827km - 170000km service - $383

    Returned home and the engine will crank and start on the battery. Although cranking speed is slow, so after being on a charger for 48 hours and a 45 minute drive, I will need to replace the battery. However not yet, I don't want to spend a cent until I am confident the auto has no problems.
    Last edited by Whippet; 24th June 2015 at 11:43 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default AL4 Slipping in 2nd Gear - Is this normal?

    Hi need to bump this thread - Any takers on the question if slipping in 2nd gear is normal for the AL$

    You know there is a pot of gold for the person that figures out the cause of AL4 problems, there seems to be many vehicles that suffer, yet the gearbox is only doing what it is told by the ECU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
    Hi. I took the vehicle for a 40km drive this evening. I wanted to get it fully up to operating tempreture, for both engine and auto gearbox. Also took the opportunity to perform many braking events, as I wanted to wear off the rust from the rotors! It has been parked for several months unprotected.

    The engine seems to be running fine. During full throttle acceleration from standstill the RPM climbed to 6200RPM and changed up dropping back to approx 4000RPM. This seemed to be the sweet spot for the engine. Also I did some drving around a new residential development, roundabouts, and narrow streets: all seems to be in order except for the slipping in 2nd gear.

    The AL4 auto seems to be fine. I operated in Drive and Manual and also Sport and Snow. All upshifts and downshifts are smooth. The only concern I have is that in second gear the engine appears to flare a little, from the 1st to 2nd upshift, as if the gearbox is slipping. This appears to occur during light, medium and full engine throttle situations. The flaring appears to be controlled and the engine RPM doesn't "run away" and keep on climbing. The other thing I noticed is that when in Sport the gearbox wouldn't shift up from 3rd to 4th, even at 120 - 130kmh with a trailing throttle. I had to de select Sport, then Auto upshifted into 4th immediately. then re select Sport and gearbox maintained 4th. Road speed approx. 100kmh.

    I would be very appreciative of comments from froggers who are familier with the AL4 automatic gearbox.

    I reviewed all of the invoices for the repairs and services that were performed. The previous owner was ripped off very badly by the local dealer. At 179,381km the following repair notes:
    When its changing from first to second gear has trouble. Has trouble when dropping back in gears.
    Checked transmission for gear shifting issues. Carried out fault reading and found to have faults for slipping and pressure regulation fault. Suspected electrovalves at fault. Removed and replace valves. Reset auto adaptives and road tested. All OK. Parts: $612. labour $340. Total $1047.


    The vehicle now indicates 180,570km.

    Out of interest the following:
    141,182km - ignition coil - $517
    142,000km?? - engine oil & filter - $252
    142,237 - fuel gauge not working, new fuel sender with pump - $764
    145,444- $189 dedicated service - $260 !!!
    157,908km - 150000km service - $268
    161,402km - 160000km service (plus timing belt, water pump, rotors & pads) - $1,731
    163,365km new fuel pump - $650 - Yikes, wasn't this replaced at 142,237???
    172,827km - 170000km service - $383

    Returned home and the engine will crank and start on the battery. Although cranking speed is slow, so after being on a charger for 48 hours and a 45 minute drive, I will need to replace the battery. However not yet, I don't want to spend a cent until I am confident the auto has no problems.

  23. #23
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Slipping in only second gear points to either the 2/3/4 clutch or the 1/2 brake. More likely the clutch.

    Running a transmission with faulty electrovalves will accelerate wear on the clutches and brakes, as they tend to drag rather than engage as directed.

    It will probably continue to drive ok for some time, but the slipping will only get worse and eventually you will lose drive in some gears.

    The servicing prices you listed all seem about right, I don't think there's been any ripping off there.
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  24. #24
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    Default 307 1.6 Petrol Engine Loosing Power, Engine Speed Sensor Faulty.

    Thanks Demannu for your comments.

    I am now thinking that the AL4 Auto is a red herring and while it may or may not have faults, in all the test drives I have performed, it hasn't let me down. I think the real trouble is in the engine.

    Anyway took it for another drive today approx. 50km, Dropped in to see Double Chevron, but don't think he was home. Pulled into another mates drive and at last I had a fault manifest, when idling it would run rough then stall. Took it for a drive, and the engine was losing drive, loosing power, jerking, as if starving for fuel. Needed to turn key off before it would start and idle again, as the power steering pump was running continuously. The fuel gauge was sort of in the red zone but not on 0 (empty) Low fuel light did not come on, so I assumed it still had enough petrol. Anyway tried limping back towards home and a few km later, lost drive totally in Sebastopol. So what to do? Got a friend to drop by with 4Lt petrol, put it in, and started and drive the 2 km to the service station no problems. Put 10Lt in the tank and drove home OK. Fired up the Lexia and read the codes, a new one was waiting for me: P0336 Engine Speed Sensor signal Coherence. Good at least something tangible. In my mind this code seems to fit the symptoms, The engine speed sensor will be used for ignition timing and RPM, which will then be used for fuel injection. So no wonder I was losing drive and intermittent power and then nothing.

    Does anybody agree with my diagnosis?
    Does anybody know if the Eng Speed Sensor commonly fails?

    The other code that has been there all along is P0134 Upstream Oxygen Sensor Signal. Not sure if this effects the closed loop fuel mixture injection or not. I suspect it will affect the fuel efficiency, but I don't this it would affect the engine and cause it to lose power and stall.

    Anyway job for tomorrow is to locate remove and test. Does anyone have resistance specifications for the Engine Speed Sensor?

    PS:
    This morning prior to the test drive, I unplugged and re-plugged every wiring harness connector I could find - twice! I wanted to inspect the contacts for corrosions, and thought the reseating would ensure good electrical continuity.

    Also I removed the throttle body, and removed the black plastic cover, I cleaned the resistance tracks and measured them for continuity and also variable resistance along the track, all seemed OK. I also cleaned the black sooty deposits from the BFV in the throttle body, quite a bit of build up.

    Also checked the coil assembly - it is brand new looking, removed one spark plug, looked new with correct gap. So I think all is OK on the high tension side.
    Last edited by Whippet; 28th June 2015 at 12:43 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
    P0336 Engine Speed Sensor signal Coherence. Good at least something tangible. In my mind this code seems to fit the symptoms, The engine speed sensor will be used for ignition timing and RPM, which will then be used for fuel injection. So no wonder I was losing drive and intermittent power and then nothing.

    Does anybody agree with my diagnosis?
    Does anybody know if the Eng Speed Sensor commonly fails?
    I wanted to verify that the Engine Speed Sensor was the cause of the engine jerky performance and stalling at idle, so it tested it today. I removed the retaining screw, and left the sensor sitting on its dowels. I then started the engine to idle and slowly withdrew the sensor, after approximately 2mm of movement, the engine runs rough, then stalls. Identical to the instances on the road test, the power steering pump continues to operate. Repeated test, same outcome. I am very confident that this is the cause all of the problems experienced by the previous owner, that was being blamed on the AL4 auto gearbox.

    So I am seeking a replacement engine speed sensor. At the same time I will replace the Upsteam Oxygen Sensor, as it also had a fault code logged on the Lexia.

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