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Thread: 406 - New Tyres - 205/55- 16

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    Default 406 - New Tyres - 205/55- 16

    Have just taken on a 406 (16" rims) with very tired Pirelli P7's (205/55) due for replacement soon. Any suggestions, please? Don't do big k's anymore, so definitely seeking performance (esp. wet) over endurance & price.

    As well - I already miss the sharp steering of my old 306 - so any particular recommendations that might sharpen up the doughy steering response on the 406 particularly welcome.

    Cheers

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    Redbren

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    Not quite the same size (and completely different car) but the logic was the same ie Something with decent performance and especially good in the wet.

    I bought Dunlop SP Sport 01 (195/55/R16) for my wifes Mercedes A class) It had pirellis on it before. They sharpened up the steering dramatically and the car feels much better on the road.

    I run Bridgestone Adrenalins on my 306, but they are not as good in the wet. I think the dunlops have better feedback than the adrenalins, Bit of a call since it is different cars, but what I felt when I got in the merc I hadn't felt in the 306 since I had Bridgestone Potenza S02 pole positions on it. You know the turn the wheel about 1cm and the car goes in that direction type responsiveness.

    I've seen a few tyre shops who give a satisfaction gaurantee, if you don't like tyres bring it back and they will change them for something else, something I wish I'd had when I made the mistake of putting pirelli's on the 306

    Take the above with a grain of salt because it isn't a 406, but something to consider

    Tony.
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    My 406 (daily driver) runs Pirelli P5s, my other 406 runs Yokohama C drives. Both are great.

    Trouble is they don't come cheap. But I know I'm safe.
    1998 Peugeot 406 D8SV Manual
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    As well - I already miss the sharp steering of my old 306 - so any particular recommendations that might sharpen up the doughy steering response on the 406 particularly welcome.

    A new set of front and rear sway bar "D" bushes along with the end links and a front and rear alignment will sharpen up the steering no end (but still not a 306 !)
    Note that there is about 3 ball jointed rods each end of the rear anti roll bar / suspension

    Alain

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    Thanks Guys - much appreciated, Good point re rear bushes, Alain (have noticed a "click" from the rear end when moving off in reverse & forward) - so will investigate that before fitting new tyres.

    Brendan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenmax View Post
    Have just taken on a 406 (16" rims) with very tired Pirelli P7's (205/55) due for replacement soon. Any suggestions, please? Don't do big k's anymore, so definitely seeking performance (esp. wet) over endurance & price.

    As well - I already miss the sharp steering of my old 306 - so any particular recommendations that might sharpen up the doughy steering response on the 406 particularly welcome.

    Cheers

    Redbren
    I share your priorities (fairly taut structure & wet grip) & would add one more for your consideration: benign (predictable, talkative & non-snappy) behaviour at the limit. There's really quite a good selection in this size in Australia.

    Fairly crisp & very good indeed in the wet are are Conti's PremiumContact 5 & its predecessor, the PremiumContact2. Each is benign at the limit. I rather think from what you say that this is the style of tyre which would suit you best. I have used the PremiumContact2 on both my Djet & the front of my 4CVG. I live in wet Tasmania & each of these beasties is driven very briskly indeed on our excellent selection of "C" roads.
    I would be perfectly happy to use them on every one of my cars (bar the old FJ 55 Landcruiser) if sizes permitted & shall be fitting them to a pair of Foresters when the current unsatisfactory Yokos (my error, see below) & Bridgestones (someone else's error) chop out.

    Another choice which is a bit crisper than the Contis & about the same in wet grip is Michelin's PilotSport PS3. Less good in the wet without being hopeless is Bridgestone's Adrenalin RE002; I mention it because it is decidedly tauter in structure than any of the aforementioned.

    I don't share Tony's good opinion of the SP Sport 01; most tests & opinion of them which I've seen have doubted their wet grip, especially when worn a bit.

    The P5 is a high mileage econo-tyre & would, I think, disappoint on tautness & wet grip. If you wanted Pirellis, then the Cinturati P7 and P1 would each better satisfy your criteria, especially the former. (The Cinturato P7 is much improved in every performance parameter over the old P7.)

    I do, however, have some sympathy with pugnut1's enthusiasm for the C-Drive. The original C-Drive was rather crisp as it had wire mesh "flippers" stiffening the sidewalls up a bit from the bead & was reasonably well compounded for the wet. However, it's gone. The replacement C-Drive2 is less crisp & less grippy in the wet. I've run many repeat sets of C-Drives on a Forester with satisfaction but was hugely disappointed with the C-Drive2 (sloppier, less wet grip & poorer recovery from loss of grip on the limit). No doubt it uses less fuel but it's a retrograde step as a driver's tyre - avoid.

    Other possibilities are Goodyear's F1 Directional (a good wet tyre) or various Yoko Advans (usually fairly taut but poor in wet-grip) but I think that either of the Contis, the PS3, P7 or (tauter but less wet grip) RE 002 would best suit.

    I'd choose less on others' anecdotal recommendations (including mine) & more on a selection of test results. You are lucky that your size is one which is popular & is actually the one used in many tyre tests (not crucial for guidance but useful as some tyres work better in some sizes than in others). A very nice British site gives summaries of a spread of European magazine tyre tests & a thorough browse should prove edifying. Regrettably, some of the better performing tyres are not sold here.

    Tyre tests at tyrereviews - TyreReviews

    It also gives user reviews which are to be read with more caution (I take most notice of those who self-describe their driving style as 'spirited').

    Finally, remember that considerable change in a car's handling balance can be wrought by playing with tyre pressures (manufacturers' recommendations are usually best ignored, being biased to comfort & plough understeer).

    Hopefully that is of some use to you.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 19th February 2015 at 03:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    I don't share Tony's good opinion of the SP Sport 01; most tests & opinion of them which I've seen have doubted their wet grip, especially when worn a bit.
    This shows beautifully how important it is to find info on the exact tyres for your car! I had made an invalid assumption that the performance of the 195/55/16 would be very similar in the wet to the 205/55/16. I just checked the euro tyre label for each of the two. the 195 gets a wet weather rating of B the 205 gets a wet wheather rating of E. That translates to 3 car lengths longer stopping distance in the wet for the 205's over the 195's!!

    Lesson learn't, near enough is not good enough!!

    Tony.
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    I have a 406 V6 D8 manual. First set I put on it were original C-drives, because I had them on the Mi16. Even though they lasted only 29k km there, they did over 40k on the 406, with regular rotation (pun intended). Very good combination of noise/wet etc.

    Next was some Michies, can't even remember which ones. Lasted, quiet, good in the wet, but dear.

    Current ones are a low-spec Kumho, a 17 or 19, which are hopeless in the wet. But, the 207GT has Kumho 39s, and they stick like snot to a cinder, esp in the wet. Difficult to make them break, even in a roundabout. Not the lightest or quietest, but I would get them again. Don't know if they come in 406 size, as they are 17inch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dijon16 View Post
    <snip>

    But, the 207GT has Kumho 39s, and they stick like snot to a cinder, esp in the wet. Difficult to make them break, even in a roundabout. Not the lightest or quietest, but I would get them again. Don't know if they come in 406 size, as they are 17inch.
    The KU39 is not available in the size. Some reading on it for those interested is at:

    Kumho Ecsta KU39 | the Kumho Ecsta KU39 reviewed and rated - TyreReviews

    Sounds like the "tautness" criterion might not be met.

    cheers! Peter

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    Bridgestone Potenza RE-11A or Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R.

    They are not true R comps, but should have superior dry and wet grip and definitely superior sidewall reinforcement than anything mentioned here so far.

    Aquaplaning resistance and wear isn't brilliant, but not terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_vert View Post
    Bridgestone Potenza RE-11A or Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R.

    They are not true R comps, but should have superior dry and wet grip and definitely superior sidewall reinforcement than anything mentioned here so far.

    Aquaplaning resistance and wear isn't brilliant, but not terrible.
    I took Brenmax to not be in the market for "track day" style tyres but they are certainly worth consideration by reference to his criteria for choice. I have considered them for my warm Moke (185/60-13) & the rears of my rear-engined Renaults (each with 185/60-14) which have camber change considerably constrained (see below for the relevance of this remark).

    Yes, they will be crisper than normal road tyres & yes, aquaplaning is more of a danger - especially as the tyres wear.

    However, most wet road work (given an absence of Autoroutes in Oz) is not at speeds conducive to ordinary longitudinal aquaplaning anyway & "track day" tyres are nicely compounded for merely slick roads where the key demand is that the "rubber" deforms to break the film & mechanically interlock with the micro-imperfections of the road surface. So far, so good.

    The major wet road concern would be an emergency stop from highway speeds in the wet. There is indeed more of an aquaplaning chance here than with a decent road tyre like the PC5 or PS3. I consider this to be a serious objection. In competition, even hard braking is self-conscious enough for threshold braking techniques to manage this situation. In an emergency, most people just "mash it to the floor". Nor is the fitting of ABS a full answer. All ABS can do is maximise one's access to whatever grip the tyre can manage.

    Finally, because of the use of more substantial rubber "fillers" & steel & fabric "flippers" reinforcing the sidewall up from the bead area, the tyres are less tolerant than most road tyres of camber change to +ve camber under lateral load & tend to climb onto the shoulder. I have no idea of the 406 suspension's characteristics in this respect.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 19th February 2015 at 10:10 PM.

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    Most excellent info - Remarkable that a 10 mm increase in width of otherwise same model/size/profile tyres would so substantially alter the braking characteristics. Prior to reading the above, I would always have presumed that the performance of a particular brand/model tyre was reasonably consistent through the sizes - so wrong...

    Interesting observation on the C-Drives. I used them through most of the life of my previous 306 & felt they were pretty decent tyres - but the last set were the "2"s and didn't seem quite as sharp - Your explanation of the structural changes, Peter, accounts well for the loss of crispness compared to the originals.

    For me personally, the emergency stop in the wet is the primary benchmark for my purposes, so long as all the other performance criteria are pretty good in this case they help sharpen the steering, so I'm leaning towards the Michelin PS3 - which will be kind of cute, as I currently have Michelin Pilot 3's on my bike (& I reckon they're brilliant).


    Thanks heaps to all who have commented. Your advices are much appreciated.

    Bren

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    Correction - Pilot 4's

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    "Most excellent info - Remarkable that a 10 mm increase in width of otherwise same model/size/profile tyres would so substantially alter the braking characteristics. Prior to reading the above, I would always have presumed that the performance of a particular brand/model tyre was reasonably consistent through the sizes - so wrong..."

    Well, not so wrong. Usually there's a bit more consistency than that. The major sources of difference are three: Speed range differences, profile differences & OE-specification for some manufacturer versus ordinary.

    On the last, many manufacturers seek low rolling resistance tyres to make their fuel consumption numbers look as good as possible. If this is achieved by compound change, then the trade off is less wet grip. Thus a look at the fine detail of specification is in order. One "sub-title" indicating a low R.R. tyre is an 'E' but others are manufacturer specific. Avoid if you can. Continental indicate this stuff in their lists but Michelin does not.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 7th March 2015 at 02:29 AM.

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    One further thought:

    I hadn't realised that the very good Dunlop Sportmaxx RT is available in your size. Better on your criteria than any of the so far mentioned options I think. One downside in some people's view is that it wears quickly. Personally, like some others, I always consider that to be a good sign about its compound. The tyres that frighten me are the maximised longevity ones.

    http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Du...ortMaxx-RT.htm

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 20th February 2015 at 10:42 PM.
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    I like your views on tyres, Peter! Long lasting tyres give me pause!

    I've most enjoyed Michelin PS3s, in 195/55R15 on the S16. Everything else I've used has been a different market segment, though not even comparable to comfort or handling.

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    One more query... From all of the above, I am leaning towards Michelin PS3 with Conti Contact 2/5's as an alternative. I have just spoken with the local Bob Jane's who is nudging me towards Michelin Primacy 3 ST (with emphasis on the "ST" which I understand makes it a different beast to the straight "Primacy 3"). He says that they are not too far behind the PS3's in performance.

    The big selling point with the Primacy 3 ST is the quietness (which is nice, but not a major item for me). The general review sites seem fairly complimentary performance-wise incl. in the wet.

    Anybody able to comment on their handling & sharpness compared to the PilotSport 3's??

    Bren

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenmax View Post
    One more query... From all of the above, I am leaning towards Michelin PS3 with Conti Contact 2/5's as an alternative. I have just spoken with the local Bob Jane's who is nudging me towards Michelin Primacy 3 ST (with emphasis on the "ST" which I understand makes it a different beast to the straight "Primacy 3"). He says that they are not too far behind the PS3's in performance.

    The big selling point with the Primacy 3 ST is the quietness (which is nice, but not a major item for me). The general review sites seem fairly complimentary performance-wise incl. in the wet.

    Anybody able to comment on their handling & sharpness compared to the PilotSport 3's??

    Bren
    The ST is a silence & comfort type. Translation: soggy. Avoid if you have the slightest interest in handling crispness.

    In fact I'd avoid any Michelin beneath the PS3 except perhaps the Primacy 3. Indeed, in the light of quoted advice, I'd be tempted to avoid, or treat with great caution, your local Bob Jane people. Their comments astonish me.

    Stay with Plan A & get PS3, PC2 or PC5.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 27th February 2015 at 10:55 PM.

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    Makes sense. Thanks

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    Another test in your size just appeared; some of the fine detail makes interesting reading.

    2015 European Tyre Test 205 55 R16 - TyreReviews

    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    I'd be tempted to avoid, or treat with great caution, your local Bob Jane people. Their comments astonish me.
    It is not their comments that would astonish me, it is the fact that their trained monkeys, as nice as they are to deal with, reef the guts out of the wheel studs with their rattle guns, and could not balance a Peugeot wheel if their business depended on it.

    I have dealt with my local, because the set of Michies was $100 cheaper than the guy down the road, but I let them know in no uncertain terms that $50 of that saving was to be spent at said guy because he has an adapter plate! His business is 1/100 the size of Bob Jane's, yet they said that they could not justify the expense of one as they don't get much call for it.

    They tried another 2 times with a static balance, bit better each time, but still not acceptable.

    So now I just go to said guy, even if he is a bit dearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dijon16 View Post
    It is not their comments that would astonish me, it is the fact that their trained monkeys, as nice as they are to deal with, reef the guts out of the wheel studs with their rattle guns, and could not balance a Peugeot wheel if their business depended on it.

    I have dealt with my local, because the set of Michies was $100 cheaper than the guy down the road, but I let them know in no uncertain terms that $50 of that saving was to be spent at said guy because he has an adapter plate! His business is 1/100 the size of Bob Jane's, yet they said that they could not justify the expense of one as they don't get much call for it.

    They tried another 2 times with a static balance, bit better each time, but still not acceptable.

    So now I just go to said guy, even if he is a bit dearer.
    I am rather blessed with my local Launceston BJ. I was one of the franchise owner's first customers in 1986 & far been treated very well ever since. Steve knows to keep his adaptor plate functional &, when he had a delay recently in getting a technician to recalibrate it (tech. was Hobart-based), he arranged for me to have some 3-stud Renault wheels done at his expense at Hobart (not his franchise). And yes, he always briefs his people to hand tighten the nuts on my cars & to use a torque wrench & to do the wheels to a tension that can be released by use of a hand brace at the roadside. The good stories could go on.

    The relationship is symbiotic in that I buy a lot of tyres (9 vehicle fleet including daughters' cars) & I'll always buy there & recommend others to buy there & "mention my name" & he gives me the best available price & personalised service. I think that the secret is to get beyond "anonymous customer #9,373" status & develop an ongoing business relationship with a firm (like BJ, or Jax, or Tyrepower) which isn't locked into just one brand.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 7th March 2015 at 02:34 AM.

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    Another update: Bridgestone have just released the Adrenalin RE003 to replace the 002. I had cause to investigate it in drawing up a "short list" for a friend (in 195/55-15) & it seems very good from the anecdotal preview drives which are all that is available so far. Sum up would be something like: as nicely taut as the 002 but with considerably improved wet grip. It sounds recommendable.

    It's available in 205/55-16.

    cheers! Peter

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    Post Script: I had the Michelin PS3s fitted today. Have not yet done any open road driving, but around town the steering is notably crisper & more direct - subject to good wet braking/handling (which I'm confident they'll provide), this is exactly what I was most seeking. Also very quiet.
    I'll report further when I've had a chance to push them a bit, but so far, I'm delighted.

    Good to hear that Steve is still at the helm of BJ Launceston, Peter. I bought alloy wheels & a couple of sets of tyres from him when I lived there in the early '90's. I recall him as having great technical knowledge, good prices, and being an all round nice bloke who took the time to get things right. I hear the comments about some other BJ's being a bit pedestrian, but the Launceston shop was & undoubtedly is a good operation.

    Brendan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenmax View Post
    Post Script: I had the Michelin PS3s fitted today. Have not yet done any open road driving, but around town the steering is notably crisper & more direct - subject to good wet braking/handling (which I'm confident they'll provide), this is exactly what I was most seeking. Also very quiet.
    I'll report further when I've had a chance to push them a bit, but so far, I'm delighted.

    Good to hear that Steve is still at the helm of BJ Launceston, Peter. I bought alloy wheels & a couple of sets of tyres from him when I lived there in the early '90's. I recall him as having great technical knowledge, good prices, and being an all round nice bloke who took the time to get things right. I hear the comments about some other BJ's being a bit pedestrian, but the Launceston shop was & undoubtedly is a good operation.

    Brendan
    I can't imagine you'll be anything but pleased with the PS3. what you might find is that the handling balance has shifted & that some experimenting with changing the F/R tyre pressure difference is worth it to get the balance you want.

    cheers! Peter

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