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Thread: 404 blue smoke blues

  1. #1
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    Default 404 blue smoke blues

    Hi fellas, about 2 months ago, I replaced a head gasket on my 404.
    The car had been parked for 2 years after I realized that oil and water
    had mixed due to a bad gasket. I was lucky to be given a new head by
    a friend, for free. Whether or not it is new, I'm not sure but it does look
    brand new. I guess I should have pressure tested it nevertheless. Anyway, I
    went ahead and fitted the head which was a big achievement for a novice like
    myself. I couldn't source a Payen gasket so I used a cheaper gasket instead,
    torqued the car to spec, adjusted the tappets and it started easily for a car
    that had been parked forever! I was so proud of myself, drove around and the power
    is as good as it's always been. My excitement was shortlived though, as soon as I
    saw smoke out of the breather pipe and blue smoke out of the tailpipe. The blue smoke
    is not very noticeable during idle but when you rev the car, it becomes very obvious.
    The car drives fine, the power is good and I decided to ask a friend to drive behind me
    a few times. He says the car ain't smoking, so it seems it only smokes at idle and when
    you rev it at standstill. Please tell me it's the head that's faulty and not the rings.
    By the way, what oil do you Aussies use for your old 404s. I've heard lots of scary stories
    about modern oil

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    I forgot to mention that one head bolt is stripped so it's not really tight. It's the 2nd or 3rd from the front on the inlet sid

  3. #3
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    It might be that the valve guides need to be replaced.
    As for the stripped head stud this is important and I suggest this be fixed with a helicoil unless its just the head bolt (rare). Usually can be done with the head on, unless it's No 1 near the fire wall and hard to get at
    68 404 likes this.
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    1000+ Posts Peter C's Avatar
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    Not being able to torque all the head bolts down properly will cause problems.

    Rings can get stuck if the engine hasn't been used for a long time. This has happended to me in the past but, after a while, the rings have started to work properly.

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    Edmund, sounds like you did a good job with the 404 head. The smoke you speak of is from the valve guides. Edmund the early 404 motor gasket kit had 8 small black rubber cups which you just fit down over the valve stem before you fit the valve springs " don't work well by the way" and later models have white plastic caps to did a better job of helping to stop oil from running down the stem. Did you fit these? On the early motor which you seem to have smoke does come out of the breather pipe on a worm motor! As for the stripped thread just take the head bolt out and find a longer bolt as there is another 10 mm of unused thread in there! with the oil used a 40w or maybe a 50w oil in your worm motor you are in Joburg.

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    What grade of oil are you using?
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

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    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

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    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

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    Hi Exfrogger. I'm using GTX High Mileage 20W5

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    When I first started the car though, I used a cheap single grade oil. Got it warmed up nicely and drained it before filling up with good oi

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    Hi Pugmachine. My motor is an XM7 and the inlet manifold has 4 bolts so it's a later motor. Does it mean this head has better seals

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    Hi Edmund,
    I'm suspicious of the head gasket - you can fit this backwards so be sure of that is one thing.
    On 404 motors you might find the cylinder liners are not sitting right as the liner seals have compressed & are hard. after a head gasket this issue becomes pronounced & will give the problem you describe. unfortunately the only way to check this is to take the head off again.
    One thing you could do is a compression check to see exactly which cylinder or cylinders are the problem before you take the head off. someone around you will have a compression tester.
    It is possible its the stem seals but given the head has been off I'm leaning towards that area - definitely change the stem seals when you can - they are cheap. can you check with the head supplier to see if they were changed at time of machining etc?
    Before you take the head off maybe just drop off the exhaust manifold to see which cylinder has oil coming from it.
    Also - did you re-torque the bolts after running up to temperature? in my experience this is a must

    I use Penrite HPR30 (20-60) which is good but you probably wont get that in SA. The only issue with modern oils really is don't mix them - put synthetic into mineral & you will end up with jelly & visa versa - always keep with one oil until you drain the whole lot. you can use an oil system flush between changes if you are worried about contamination.

    i'll keep watching to see how you go
    rgds
    G.

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    Default 404 smoke questions

    Could the high detergent GTX oil have dislodged build up from behind the rings ?
    and
    Is it true that synthetic oil in a worn motor does not produce smoke?

    are these myths or have some validity ?

  12. #12
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    Which year model 404 is this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grenouille View Post
    Hi Edmund,
    I'm suspicious of the head gasket - you can fit this backwards so be sure of that is one thing.
    On 404 motors you might find the cylinder liners are not sitting right as the liner seals have compressed & are hard. after a head gasket this issue becomes pronounced & will give the problem you describe. unfortunately the only way to check this is to take the head off again.
    One thing you could do is a compression check to see exactly which cylinder or cylinders are the problem before you take the head off. someone around you will have a compression tester.
    It is possible its the stem seals but given the head has been off I'm leaning towards that area - definitely change the stem seals when you can - they are cheap. can you check with the head supplier to see if they were changed at time of machining etc?
    Before you take the head off maybe just drop off the exhaust manifold to see which cylinder has oil coming from it.
    Also - did you re-torque the bolts after running up to temperature? in my experience this is a must

    I use Penrite HPR30 (20-60) which is good but you probably wont get that in SA. The only issue with modern oils really is don't mix them - put synthetic into mineral & you will end up with jelly & visa versa - always keep with one oil until you drain the whole lot. you can use an oil system flush between changes if you are worried about contamination.

    i'll keep watching to see how you go
    rgds
    G.

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    or maybe sticky rings from sitting for a while - not the nicest solution but I guess you could flood the cylinders with petrol to wash / dislodge any crud out & try with new oil...

    don't know about the synthetic in tired motors? - I have only used it in new motors

    & Graham - 4 bolt inlet?
    does this mean its an 1800 head - I cant remember

    Quote Originally Posted by alpine View Post
    Could the high detergent GTX oil have dislodged build up from behind the rings ?
    and
    Is it true that synthetic oil in a worn motor does not produce smoke?

    are these myths or have some validity ?

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    Yes, would be 1800 if that was the case.
    Likely to be a later 2 litre style block, but year model will tell.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Grenouille View Post
    or maybe sticky rings from sitting for a while - not the nicest solution but I guess you could flood the cylinders with petrol to wash / dislodge any crud out & try with new oil...

    don't know about the synthetic in tired motors? - I have only used it in new motors

    & Graham - 4 bolt inlet?
    does this mean its an 1800 head - I cant remember

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    If the car was parked for 2 years AFTER water and oil had mixed, isn't it possible that water also got into a cylinder ? And therefore possible that a cylinder wall is rusted ? So that the oil rings are not seating properly ?

    Edmund....did you leave it sit with oil and water still together ?

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    Yes I did leave the car with oil and water mixed for about 5 months before draining i

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    you look brave from here Edmund but I suspect you might have to open that motor again,- I hear your groan but thinking it through the oil can only be coming from blow-by or the gasket or a leaky valve.
    compression test will prove this.
    definitely no oil in the water or visa versa?

    if its driving ok & you feel really brave then you could try taking it for a run & getting it nice & warm. Just maybe the problem will reduce if its sticky rings - life's no good with a sticky ring...
    the worst case is you will have to come back & take the head off after the drive

    did you by chance roll the motor over when you had the head off? - if so did you look for hairline cracks in the bores? this also would have shown up the possible rust damage if any.

    I did have the problem you describe once in a 504 & after much hunting found a hairline crack in one cylinder - but normally that would give the opposite effect & have no smoke at idle but more as you get more pressure etc.
    if you do pull it all down look for a full Payen gasket kit as they normally have the liner seals & stem seals in the kit as well - that way if you find the liners are low you are set to go with all the right parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund View Post
    Yes I did leave the car with oil and water mixed for about 5 months before draining i

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    Yes Grenouille, I'm definitely gonna take the head apart. There are definitely no shortcuts at this stage. There is no water in the oil(dipstick looks fine), there is slight oil in the radiator, not much, just traces of oil above the water and the valvetrain is a bit noisy, I wonder why because tappets are set correctly. I didn't roll the motor when the head was off because I didn't have liner locks. I will do a compression test and let you guys know what I find, thanx a lot for everyone's input

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugmachine View Post
    motor you are in Joburg.
    Yes I'm in Jo'burg mate

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Yes, would be 1800 if that was the case.
    Likely to be a later 2 litre style block, but year model will tell.
    Graham
    It's a 1974 Peugeot 404 GL(SA market only). I call it the hybrid 404 because it has a lot of 404 bits, 1800 motor from 504L,
    floorshift gear system from 504L, front seats with headrests with vinyl and leather upholstery similar to those of 504GLs, console,
    glovebox etc. It is a 404 in many respects though, the only obvious difference is the torque, which is very noticeable especially as you leave the robot. Peugeot SA changed the gear ratios to give it a punchier first gear. Only 5000 were ever made
    pugnut1 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grenouille View Post
    Hi Edmund,
    I'm suspicious of the head gasket - you can fit this backwards so be sure of that is one thing.
    No that's fitted correctly but I'm gonna have to start from scratch and hunt for a quality gasket. There is a classic Peugeot spares guy but he's ridiculously expensive. He has all the original parts from France

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    Hi Edmund,
    have a look at item No 121462976897 or 121517757508 on fleabay - both in Netherlands $35 - 48 USD + postage - they are both full kits with the liner seals in the kit.
    I have bought from both of them before with no troubles.

    There are a couple of 404's the same as yours in Aus - a nice option in my opinion to have the 1800 motor. yours also has round headlight surrounds correct?

    rgds
    G.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund View Post
    No that's fitted correctly but I'm gonna have to start from scratch and hunt for a quality gasket. There is a classic Peugeot spares guy but he's ridiculously expensive. He has all the original parts from France

  23. #23
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    Any chance of some photos of the car?
    1998 Peugeot 406 D8SV Manual
    1999 Peugeot 406 D8ST Auto
    2002 Peugeot 406 D9SV Manual
    1994 Peuegot 306 N3 Cabriolet Manual
    1994 Peugeot 306 XR N3 Hatch
    1995 Peugeot 505 GTI executive
    1976 Peugeot 504 Sedan - Now sold

    Over 60 Pugs in my time
    Gerry Mullock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund View Post
    It's a 1974 Peugeot 404 GL(SA market only). I call it the hybrid 404 because it has a lot of 404 bits, 1800 motor from 504L,
    floorshift gear system from 504L, front seats with headrests with vinyl and leather upholstery similar to those of 504GLs, console,
    glovebox etc. It is a 404 in many respects though, the only obvious difference is the torque, which is very noticeable especially as you leave the robot. Peugeot SA changed the gear ratios to give it a punchier first gear. Only 5000 were ever made
    Robot in SA is we call traffic lights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grenouille View Post
    Hi Edmund,
    have a look at item No 121462976897 or 121517757508 on fleabay - both in Netherlands $35 - 48 USD + postage - they are both full kits with the liner seals in the kit.
    I have bought from both of them before with no troubles.

    There are a couple of 404's the same as yours in Aus - a nice option in my opinion to have the 1800 motor. yours also has round headlight surrounds correct?

    rgds
    G.
    Thank you very much for the gasket info. Yes mine has the round headlight rings, all SA post '73 404s
    are like that. It was an attempt by Peugeot SA to save money. They figured, why don't we fit the smaller
    locally available HELLA headlights instead of importing the originals from France, so the front fenders were
    slightly redesigned to accomodate Hella

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