405 Mi16 first ever breakdown; advice please
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Thread: 405 Mi16 first ever breakdown; advice please

  1. #1
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    Default 405 Mi16 first ever breakdown; advice please

    Hi all,

    Well the 405 finally let me down, a little. At least it had the courtesy to stop while still in my driveway.

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    About two months ago I started it in the morning, it spluttered a few times as if it had run out of fuel, then stopped. I restarted it and drove off and it was fine until now. No signs at all.

    After a really hot day I'd driven home a few k's and parked up. A few hours later I went to go out, started up, reversed down the driveway, and it spluttered and died, exactly like last time, hunting for about 15 seconds then gone. However, it just wouldn't go again at all this time.

    All the obvious suspects come to the fore; CAS, ignition module, fuel pump (either of them) etc. etc. up to the ECU.

    So I tested for spark, and there was spark. So on to fuel, and there is no fuel flow. Easy I think, it's one of the pumps. Checked the relay and fuse, both seem fine (relay clicks with 12v across it and is making contact). Relay is getting 11v-ish. Then I check the wiring at the external fuel pump for voltage. But with the wires connected to the pump, there is no voltage at all. Disconnect the wires from the pump, and I have about 10.5v across them with the ignition cranking. Hmmm.

    Note the battery is sitting at under 12v because of all the messing around but I am recharging it while I'm going.

    So I suspected the internal pump in the tank. Disconnected its fuel outlet pipe from the inlet of the external pump (under the car) and switched on the ignition, nothing, but then when I cranked the engine - fuel everywhere.

    So logic might suggest the tank pump is OK and there's an issue with the external fuel pump, so I removed it and connected it to a battery and it ran and emptied itself. I didn't run it for long as I'm aware this isn't good for them.

    So while unlikely, has anyone heard of lines getting blocked? Note that the rubber hoses under the bonnet aren't old so shouldn't have collapsed. If I had a compressor I'd blow through from the rear to check, but I don't. However, if that's looking likely I'll borrow one. I've replaced the fuel filter and all the lines under the back of the car.

    The pump should show battery voltage across its terminals while the engine's cranking shouldn't it? I'm not missing something because it's going through the windings of the motor? I know it's obvious, but I'm beginning to doubt myself!

    The only other thing I'm thinking of it simply the pump is not putting out the power it should be, but was fine with almost no load when off the car. But I thought these just failed dead, or worked, no half measures.

    Lastly, mine has that little black potted device inserted in the fuel pump wires right next to the pump that I've seen referred to on here. I hope that's not throwing up an issue under load. It shows continuity for each wire, so seems OK.

    Any ideas appreciated.

    Stuey
    Last edited by Stuey; 1st February 2015 at 07:33 PM.


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    I missed the most obvious test; running the two pumps together without any pressure.

    I've just done this by disconnecting the outlet of the fuel filter in front of the external pump and nothing came out. So it looks like it's the fuel pump, even though it runs when not connected. But I did run it off a battery that was being charged at the time at about 14v, so maybe the pump just won't run on the lower cranking voltage, and is knackered.


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    Can you guys just stop? I can't process all these replies!
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    1000+ Posts lion5's Avatar
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    ill break the ice..tried the fuel filter? fluid clean out o if?T
    not sure where teh ffilte runs on te mi16 line

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    If the pump is jammed, then you may not see 12V.

    I'd start by testing flow directly out of the external pump by means of another hose. Bridge out wires 1 and 76A of the fuel pump relay. It should flow 540mL in 15 sec. Then do the same out of the filter.

    Do you need a copy of the manual?

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Stuey,
    I recall a PCCWA member having ongoing problems with his 405 [not yours]. Turned out to be a duff battery cell.

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    I've replaced the filter, which is on the outlet of the external pump, Lion.

    Peter, the pump isn't jammed, it runs fine when off the car, but I've only tested it on about 14v which was from the battery while I was recharging it. I ran it with the filter attached and it blew the remaining fuel out the end. No, I shouldn't need the manual, thanks. I was starting to think the pump might need greater voltage/current than the car was supplying (due to wear) so I'll test it with a variable voltage / current power supply I have. I will also do your test using a largish funnel and pipe - good one.

    Mr Wilde, noted. It's a fairly new battery, but I know that doesn't mean much.

    Thanks guys. I always thought these roller vane/turbine type pumps either went or they didn't.


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    Hi Stuey, I'm not familiar with the pumps, but it isn't an earthing issue by any chance?

    Tony.
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    Hi Tony, no I don't think so. The pump is earthed via its fairly substantial wiring (rather than to the chassis) which is connected by two ring terminals attached by nuts and they are really clean, still having the rubber boots intact. However, it's certainly something I'll check - the security of these. Thanks. All ideas considered.

    I think it'll be the pump, but a quality replacement is about $150 so it's not something I'd just try on the off chance - although I did think of a cheap Chinese Bosch copy for $50 on the off chance; hang the diagnostics!
    Last edited by Stuey; 3rd February 2015 at 12:14 AM.


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    Try supplying direct 12V to the outfeed of the fuel pump relay and see if it runs like nothing happened.

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    Could it be that the tachymetric relay has a high resistens ,enough to give you a reading on your meter but not enough to run the pumps, pugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    I think it'll be the pump, but a quality replacement is about $150 so it's not something I'd just try on the off chance - although I did think of a cheap Chinese Bosch copy for $50 on the off chance; hang the diagnostics!
    I was going to say that I think you're right, but thinking about wording my answer changed my mind. I was going to say that these pumps should still motor at a fairly low voltage -- I was experimenting with them at 6-9V for the 604 EFI conversion. That yours didn't work at 11V suggested that it was really borderline. Perhaps poling or something like that.

    BUT, that you read 0V across the terminals when the pump's connected says that the power supply simply isn't providing enough current. Do that same test but, instead of testing across the terminals, what is the voltage from either terminal to a good ground? If that's very close to zero, your power supply is bad (relay, dirty connection/fuse) if it's around 11V you have a bad earth. If it's somewhere in the middle, buy a lottery ticket.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    Rob, thinking about this at work today I figured the same. It's not providing enough current for the same reason you thought.

    THEN, I spoke to my friendly local auto elec only to see if he could provide a new pump if required but we got talking and he suggested the same; not knowing the car he reckons it doesn't sound like the pump, but mentioned the relay contacts maybe, or something else in the power circuit. But I can't do much until the weekend, unfortunately. Damn working!

    I've eyeballed the relay contacts and they look fine, so just cleaned them up with fine paper and petrol and reinstalled. I'll have to go through the circuit.

    Pugs where's the tachymetric relay?
    Last edited by Stuey; 3rd February 2015 at 08:38 PM.


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    Sure you don't want the factory manual?

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    Ahhh, yes please; do you have it scanned or something? I have both Haynes version and their wiring diagrams are OK, but otherwise they're pretty useless.


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  16. #16
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    PDF, send me your email address.

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    Done.

    On the tachy relay, going by the wiring diagram in Haynes, is this the one I've been calling the fuel pump relay, in the black box where the diagnostic connector is?


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    Just as a pointer for trouble shooting, just about everything on your Peugeot will have an earth reference on the negative terminal. In other words, all the "-"terminals should be earthed to the body.

    In your car, rather than try and measure volts across 2 terminals on a device, measure between the positive terminal and a known earth. This will tell you what volts are being applied to the device. Remember the simple equation V=IR. If you then measure across the terminals, and you measure less than the applied volts, you have a high resistance to earth and the motor is not seeing the full applied volts.

    If the pump runs on the test bench, it is unlikely to be a pump issue at all and more likely either the relay / supply / earth.

    Peter's manual would be a good place to start your troubleshooting.
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    Thanks for your help Racing. I'm not sure whether you're telling me what I already know in a fancy way, or not. I do a fair bit of electronics as a hobby (amplifiers etc.) so know a bit about electrical theory. I am aware of the negative earthing of devices in the car. I hope I'm not coming across as not even knowing that.

    I have Peter's manual and also some other wiring diagrams so should be fine.


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    r the injectors pulsing while cranking...
    remember...ignition and injection are connected via tych relay, ignition module... 4 leds will tell you if injectors are getting power...you can use a test light while somebody cranks...direct of injector connector....
    cheers

    dino

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    Dino, the rail isn't getting fuel via the pump. I've removed the fuel hose and cranked the engine to test; nothing. Looks like I'll be busy this weekend testing things.


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    It might be worth pulling the lift pump out of the tank and checking the wiring/connections. I recently did the same since I was replacing the top seal anyway, & found the wire connectors loose on the terminals. The wires are very thin as well.

    Also the lift hose from the pump was rock hard so another thing to check.
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    Hi Stuey, The key takeout I had from racings post was the measuring voltage to a known earth point, and comparing that to voltage measured across the terminals (as you know I do a lot of diy electronics, but something so simple did not occur to me).

    The test will immediately tell you whether there is an earthing issue or not. If the measured voltages are identical no earth issue. If the measurement across the terminals is lower than from positive terminal to known good earth, you have resistance in your earth wiring. I probably would have tried measuring resistance from the earth point on the pump to chassis, but racings way is much better IMO

    Tony.
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    Hi Tony; sorry I should have said that I'd checked the resistance to the chassis earth as one of my first checks over the wiring when I looked at the little black box thing attached to the wires to see if it was the issue. Around one ohm between the ring terminal on the end of the wire and the stud on which the pump bracket is mounted (which surprised me actually - I thought it'd be greater). I honestly wasn't trying to be clever, I really appreciate all help because to be honest a few things didn't sound logical to me so all minds will help! Racing, sorry if I came across that way I was just embarrassed if I sounded like a numpty stumbling around with a DMM in my hands.

    So, I followed the diagnostic path in the manual provided by Peter, and it says to check cranking voltage at the pump terminals (must be >9v) and then the lift pump terminals (>9v) ... and if it meets these first two tests, test with a replacement pump! Well mine was up around 10v for both.

    I've gone over everything overnight; replaced the relays with new ones I already had, checked continuity of wires etc. etc. But critically, I connected my massive 20A battery charger directly to the pump in-situ and then cranked the starter, and no fuel was pumped - the pump made no noise. So I removed the pump and it was full of fuel from the lift pump's work.

    Now thinking that it must be the pump, I removed it and connected an ammeter in series and it's drawing 2.5A (it's still working off the car) which I think is quite a bit too much current draw for an empty pump not under load I don't know though. The maximum for this pump under working conditions is 6.5A. I'm starting to think it is the pump. It was a little bit noisy too and I think these are normally turbine smooth.

    I didn't do any of the more involved tests suggested as I only had limited time working under the car at night so just did the more easy ones. But I think it might be time to order a pump...that test with the battery charger connected directly to the pump must prove it surely.

    I really appreciate everyone's help so far. I might just grab a pump; it may just work.


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    Well I don't normally replace parts at random but am a bit pushed for time and needed an easy fix. And I've just learned a lesson. The new pump didn't make a difference.

    I'm going to be a bit busy over the next couple of days so won't have time to do much, but I'm gunna have to get deeper into the factory manual's diagnostic routine.

    What's preying on my mind is the sudden death of the car, like something failed or a connection broke.
    Last edited by Stuey; 4th February 2015 at 08:55 PM.


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