405 Mi16 no spark, seeking help with wiring please
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 405 Mi16 no spark, seeking help with wiring please

    Hello,

    Last week I picked up a 1990 405 mi16.
    The intention was to use it's engine in my 205 but the car is generally in very nice condition so now i'm not sure. Anyway that's a decision for another day.

    At the moment I'm trying to get it running.

    The story goes......

    The previous owner was using it as a daily commuter when one day the engine harness rubbed through near the alternator and melted all the wires together. He replaced the harness from another car but it's a bit bodge with some non factory looking connectors/relays etc

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    He said he did get it running after this but it wouldn't idle. (when I bought it the air box/maf thingy was disconnected so this might be the reason for that) He then parked it for some months, and when he got back to it, it would not start. More time passed and spousal pressure built and he had to sell.

    So I went and grabbed it and got it home and started tinkering and searching online for possible solutions.

    Basically it will crank but I have no spark. I've tried another coil and another ignition module. I checked the resistance of the CAS and it was close to spec. Power is getting to the coil (should all 4 terminals show 12v with the ignition on?)

    There is a bundle of 3 yellow wires with non factory crimp terminals on the ends coming from the main harness down near the temp sensors that aren't connected to anything. Any idea what these are for?
    I have a feeling they should be going down the back of the engine somewhere.

    I am unable to find any info of what the various relays are for. I'm just looking for somewhere to start testing. Since it did run i'm hoping it's just a stupid wiring/relay/fuse problem, but with no diagram or labels on anything it makes it hard to check things.

    The relay box up by the ECU has 4 relay spots but only 3 have relays. I put a relay in the empty place and it powers on with the ignition. Is this one meant to be there?

    I'll throw up a few pics shortly, might give more of an idea what i'm dealing with.

    Thanks!

    Ben

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    You can download the Haynes manual off the net and that has wiring diagrams.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    PM me your email address and I'll send you some info.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #4
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    405 Mi16 no spark, seeking help with wiring please-405-wiring-2.jpg405 Mi16 no spark, seeking help with wiring please-405-wiring-4.jpg

  5. #5
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    Update:

    I tried to do the ECU self test but it would not work, nothing happened at all.
    I also followed a trouble shooting flow chart in one of the manuals and it ended up on "replace calculator"

    So i'm assuming this means the ECU, which is what i'm going to try replacing next.

    Ben

  6. #6
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    Well it runs!, sort of.

    Fitted replacement ECU and at first I didn't think anything had changed, but after several attempts to crank it over I got a cough.
    Then a few more attempts and it hiccuped. Carried on like this for some time more and eventually it would fire but very quickly die, then it would run as long as you didn't give it any throttle. Then it would take part throttle, and so on and so forth till eventually it would run and rev and be able to be driven. So it's ability to run seems related to then engine warming up, and once it's up to temp it seems to run more or less ok, although I suspect it should have more power. But now i'm getting ahead of myself.

    I suspected maybe fuel pump so I disconnected the fuel rail and put the hose into a container and cranked the engine and it seemed to have decent flow so i'm not too sure about that now.

    The next day when it was cold again it did the same thing, so I tried some Start ya bastard in the intake. This worked and it started right up but died after the effect of the spray wore off. I repeated this and using regular small squirts of assistance I could start and run the car and keep it running for a minute or so at which point it would run on it's own.

    To me it does seem to be fuel related, is there anything else I should maybe look at before I try replacing the pump?

    Thanks
    Ben

    PS, literally just had a thought. I know the hose going from the oil filler to the sump is torn and disconnected and it just occoured to me that this might be part of the engines breather system? Would this cause a massive air leak perhaps causing my problem?

    Also I don't know where it's ripped but after I went down the street and back the car had leaked enough oil all over the rad support to make a mess. Does this hose go low enough for oil to slop out of the sump?

    Thanks again.

  7. #7
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    I meant to add that the K light stays on, as does the oil pressure light, although i'm sure the engine has pressure. This might be related to the extra wires I have in the engine harness that don't go anywhere.
    Also I can't get the ecu to flash me any error codes, or anything, for some reason.
    Not sure if that info helps but thought it might be relevant.
    Ben

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Oil pipe will be no influence to the eventual running. I would be looking for vacuum leaks around the throttle body and idle control valve. Just replace them all. For twenty bucks worth of hose it will be welcomed anyway. Check and clean the idle control valve, the electrical connections and maybe take some measurements with a multimeter.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    The three wires near the temp sensor. Water temp? What does the crank angle sensor connect to? Also the air flow meter? You might have a diesel loom in a petrol car?
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  10. #10
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    Both coolant temp sensors are plugged in, as is the air flow meter and crank sensor.
    At this stage (obviously I will investigate further) I am assuming the oil pressure switch is simply unplugged or faulty, as with the amount i've run the car i'm sure if there was no oil pressure I would have symptoms by now.

    I'm confident the harness is the correct one for the car, although it has been somewhat poorly modified in the past.

    Are the hoses a generic replacement item or 405 specific?
    Any suggestions on a good source for parts would be appreciated
    Silicon ones would be preferable if they are reasonably affordable and available.

    I'll do some poking around on Ebay UK to see what I can find, unless there is a better local alternative.

    Thanks
    Ben

    PS, re: the 3 yellow wires I have spare, another member has suggested they might be for the O2 sensor, as that has a 3 wire plug in the same general vicinity

    Quote Originally Posted by PugMonkey View Post
    The three wires near the temp sensor. Water temp? What does the crank angle sensor connect to? Also the air flow meter? You might have a diesel loom in a petrol car?

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    So in brief, your symptoms point at poor running at low temperatures. I assume it runs fine at normal temperature including idling.

    This points to a faulty temp sensor (?) but a funny one at that. Usually cars with faulty temp sensors don't run well when hot (i.e. the ECU thinks the engine is cold and runs enriched mixture all the time). Yours seems to go exactly the other way around. What does the dash gauge (engine temp) read?

    Air leaks would make the car run like a pig all the time.

    You say no spark, why is that? Did you have a look at the plugs? Spark test is easy, you don't mention if you tried.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 11th March 2015 at 01:27 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  12. #12
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    Hi,

    Yes, very hard to start when engine is cold, though once warmed up it starts, idles, and drives pretty much normal. The fact that using a spray start works well when it's cold suggests to me that it's either not getting enough fuel or it's getting way to much air. On it's own it takes a lot of cranking before it will even think about coughing, let alone starting, but with the spray it will start immediately, but die again unless you keep spraying.

    I think I recall that the temp gauge would jump around a bit, particularly when cranking. I think once the engine was running though it behaved as you would expect it to.

    No spark was the initial problem I had with the car when I first bought it, since remedied by replacing the ECU.

    Ben




    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    So in brief, your symptoms point at poor running at low temperatures. I assume it runs fine at normal temperature including idling.

    This points to a faulty temp sensor (?) but a funny one at that. Usually cars with faulty temp sensors don't run well when hot (i.e. the ECU thinks the engine is cold and runs enriched mixture for all the time). Yours seems to go exactly the other way around. What does the dash gauge (engine temp) read?

    Air leaks would make the car run like a pig all the time.

    You say no spark, why is that? Did you have a look at the plugs? Spark test is easy, you don't mention if you tried.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
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    Yeah Change the temp sensor and the vacuum lines.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    okay, so you say the fuel seems to get to the injectors. That leaves the injectors themselves. Does the car have a cold start injector (or some fuel delivery system for cold starting?).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 11th March 2015 at 11:07 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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