504 Clutch and Drivetrain Issues
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Default 504 Clutch and Drivetrain Issues

    Few wierd things happening under the old 504 these days, odd sounds mostly.

    Sometimes when changing gears there is a slight clank comming from the rear, presumeably the rear diff? Is this normal or a sign of something getting worn? Its been there for a while but i thought that I should ask.

    My clutch pedal has a dead spot of sorts. There is about 30 -60 deg of nothing. THen the clutch disengages. Is this normal? If not is it the clutch master cyclinder not moving enough? Is its movement restricted?

    Some times the when the clutch pedal is pushed in there is a sort of soft growling sound, like a low rumble that was not there before? Is the clutch release bearing starting to wear?

    A lot of questions and not a lot of information I know

    thanks

    shobbz

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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    On the first count, I'd look for something loose first... a diff mount bolt, the bolts diff to link tube, maybe even the exhaust bracket on the side of the gearbox or perhaps (how are the engine mounts?) the gear linkage hitting the side of the tunnel. Or even the engine to box bolts?

    Then chase down the CV joints and see if they're okay. If possible, get the car up high (on something at the front, ramps at the rear etc) so you can crawl under and look and listen as someone else puts it into gear and lets out the clutch, both in forward and reverse.

    The hydraulics might be the problem in the other thing, but if the engine to box bolts are loose you will get this problem too. Clue?

    Clutch release bearing is a fair diagnosis of the third, but again, if the engine to box bolts are moving it might be all the problems in one...

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bell
    On the first count, I'd look for something loose first... a diff mount bolt, the bolts diff to link tube, maybe even the exhaust bracket on the side of the gearbox or perhaps (how are the engine mounts?) the gear linkage hitting the side of the tunnel. Or even the engine to box bolts?
    I will check all the bolts, I haven't looked at this. Do they become loose through normal wear and tear. I assume that they do but could their comming loose be an indication of something else? Engine mounts look to be okay, no cracks, shall check then bolts for tightness as well

    Then chase down the CV joints and see if they're okay. If possible, get the car up high (on something at the front, ramps at the rear etc) so you can crawl under and look and listen as someone else puts it into gear and lets out the clutch, both in forward and reverse.
    CV joints, fun fun fun, possiblt the diff to difbox mount bolts could be loose, just sounds that way, but i really don't know. Will give the cv joints a look over. But what am i really looking for when i look at them?


    The hydraulics might be the problem in the other thing, but if the engine to box bolts are loose you will get this problem too. Clue?
    I hope that the engine to box bolts are not loose, does not sound good. I am pretty sure that its hydraulics at fault.


    Clutch release bearing is a fair diagnosis of the third, but again, if the engine to box bolts are moving it might be all the problems in one...
    .

    Clutch bearing, more fun and cash. The present one is only about 1.5 years old. Is this too soon for one to die?
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  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Sure is... far too soon...

    I'd check the engine to box bolts first. I don't think you saw the import of the last bit of my first post...

    This could be all three problems in one! Loose bolts here could possibly create all these symptoms.

    Oh, forgot to mention the bolts on the back of the box... and yes, things do come loose over time, if not tightened properly.

    With the CV joints, just check for excessive movement. Jack one wheel at a time, hold the inner end and have someone move the wheel back and forward... see if the shaft turns more than the inner joint, or if the outer joint turns more than the shaft...

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    CV's would have been giving indications for a little while if they were on their way out

    i think it's right to assume that with the travelling you have recently done that there will be something loose

    start at the front and work back checking all mounting points and you are bound to find something

    most common one is the diff mounts coming loose in 504's
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    I am experiencing something slightly similar.

    A bit of creaking/clunking from the rear end, nothing major most of the time.

    Except once I'm going on the motorway, sitting at 100k or so there is this nasty clunking noise coming from the rear end, only when throttle is applied though. As soon as you give it an inch of throttle the harsh clunking appears.

    Given this is only occuring under throttle I assume it is differential related?

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Hmmm... that sounds like maybe the splines on the pinion and the tail shaft have been wearing out...

    If so, one day expect to have trouble pulling away from the tollgates.

  8. #8
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    I am experiencing something slightly similar.

    A bit of creaking/clunking from the rear end, nothing major most of the time.

    Except once I'm going on the motorway, sitting at 100k or so there is this nasty clunking noise coming from the rear end, only when throttle is applied though. As soon as you give it an inch of throttle the harsh clunking appears.

    Given this is only occuring under throttle I assume it is differential related?

    once again start checking to make sure all is tight underneath the car

    i could nearly bet on a loose diff mount for this one as i have had exactly the same clunk a couple of times
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Cheers guys.

    Ray: Tollgates? Not in New Zealand...

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Loose diff mount? Well, I guess that's on the cards too... but if that spline's worn, one day it will just not drive at all...

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    Hi,

    It maybe worthwhile also checking the rear cross member mounts. If the rubber bushes are worn you can experience a metaalic clunck.

    The cross member mounts are on either side forward of each rear wheel under the side sill area. The upper mount is secured to the body, remove the rear seat squab to see three bolts and a securing spacer, on either side.

    Now if the bushes are worn, the cross member (look underneath) will not be level with the upper mount, ie it will be at a slant. If you poke a large screwdriver between both mount and you can induce significant movement. It is then worthwhile renewing the rubber bushes.

    It is likely that the alloy mounts that retains the bushes have now elongated holes. You can solve this and future problems by carefully drilling out the alloy mount and fit the equivalent to R 10 shock absorber bushes. The three bolts would then pass through the more solid bushes thus eliminating future wearing away of the aluminium.

    The above is based on recollection going back to the early 80's. Maybe Ray and Sean can confirm the above either way.

    Cheers ..... Nick

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Ah... yes, we didn't mention that...

    Mainly because we know that Shobbzy spent half of last year playing that game!

    But thanks for the thought. Very valid comments.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Ahh the crossmember game.

    Certainly one of the best to play.

    Not that hard to replace. The bolts just like break!!!!!!

    I would say that my splines are prbably shot, although the clunking could be deccribed as loose metal vs metal.

    Time to get the pug up on some ramps.

    shobbz
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Just on clutches.

    I only recently found out that my clutch master cyclinder only extends out 3/4 of the normal travel

    If i take it off and replace it with another can i just fill everythin up with fluid again?

    Is reverse flushing the way to go.

    I honestly don't think that I have ever got this to work. I am not sure what type of master and slave cyclinders i have are or if they have the valves or springs inside them rendering them incompatiable.

    Hopefully I have compatiable types.

    How does one asses a brake booster. I think that my present one is allright, but again with my hydraulic issues i cannot be certain

    thanks

    shobbz
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    To check a brake booster you press the brake pedal around half a dozen times with the motor stopped to let out any vacuum that might be in it, put your foot down hard on the pedal, and start the motor. You should feel the pedal "give" a bit when the motor starts and the engine vacuum gives power assistance to the brakes. If hte pedal feel does not change you have a stuffed booster, vacuum pipes, or one-way valve.
    Pugs Rule!

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I am quite perplexed?

    I have beld all my brakes, after I put the new 604 struts and calipers on and yet the brakes still work at about 50%. Enough to stop the car but you really have to push to get the car to stop?

    Booster seems to be fine. Might change it with another one i have to see if there is a difference though?

    Could it be that master cyclinder? Seals just gone, not applying enough pressure? When I push on the pedal hard enough the car stops but only with great effort.

    Possibly unrelated but my master clutch cyclinder is stuffed? Could this affect the brakes?

    thanks

    shobbz
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  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    are you running a twin or single master ?

    twins work better for the 604 brakes but i have run them on singles without any trouble
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    are you running a twin or single master ?

    twins work better for the 604 brakes but i have run them on singles without any trouble
    twin, Could I adapt a single?

    Possibly less to go wrong?

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

  19. #19
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    stick with the twin

    how old is it ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    stick with the twin

    how old is it ?
    NO idea on its age. It was from a working car.

    When I took the struts off I also took off the calipers. The whole front system including the master cyclinder was dry for about 3 days?

    Could the seals have gone bye, bye?

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    they should be ok unless they were on their way out

    i take it you have put the master from the 604 on the 504 ?
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    they should be ok unless they were on their way out

    i take it you have put the master from the 604 on the 504 ?
    No, still using the 504 one?

    Is the 604 master bigger/larger pressure?

    Do the 604 pistons require more pressure to opperate?

    Have I made a boo boo?

    thanks

    shobbz
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    1975 504 GL

  23. #23
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i have used 604 calipers with 504 single and twin masters and also 604 masters

    the 604 ones are bigger but so are the boosters as well

    with the car running put your foot on the pedal and hold it down, if it keeps going down then you have a problem with the master

    seal kits are pretty cheap for the calipers
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i have used 604 calipers with 504 single and twin masters and also 604 masters

    the 604 ones are bigger but so are the boosters as well

    with the car running put your foot on the pedal and hold it down, if it keeps going down then you have a problem with the master

    seal kits are pretty cheap for the calipers
    It gets to a point where you cannot push any more but that's almost at the floor?

    The 604 calipers have been re kitted.

    Are the master cyclinder seal kits expensive? This is the second master cyclinder that i have replaced though? I am sure that i am not being paranoid, the brakes shoud be working better and with out as much pedal pressure as is currently required.

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    If i replace the clutch master cyclinder do i just bleed the clutch system and then all is good?

    Will it affect the brake system if I plug the clutch hose from the brake master when i take the clutch master off?

    shobbz
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    2005 407 ST Exec
    1975 504 GL

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