towing with a 505 STi
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  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Default towing with a 505 STi

    I'm guessing its going to be pushing it a bit, but would anyone advise against towing a tandem car trailer with a car on it with an auto STi? Not worried too much about power, as I will be taking it very easy (80kph max sounds about right) and it will be over 100 km of highway/freeway work.

    but I will try to hit up my brother with his landcruiser first

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    I'm guessing its going to be pushing it a bit, but would anyone advise against towing a tandem car trailer with a car on it with an auto STi? Not worried too much about power, as I will be taking it very easy (80kph max sounds about right) and it will be over 100 km of highway/freeway work.

    but I will try to hit up my brother with his landcruiser first
    I used my 505 GR with STI rear suspension to tow just such a load last week.
    It was fine, very stable and towed at around 80 to 100km/h.

    Graham Wallis

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    Fellow Frogger! PCOATES505's Avatar
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    Default towing with 505

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    I'm guessing its going to be pushing it a bit, but would anyone advise against towing a tandem car trailer with a car on it with an auto STi? Not worried too much about power, as I will be taking it very easy (80kph max sounds about right) and it will be over 100 km of highway/freeway work.

    but I will try to hit up my brother with his landcruiser first
    The sti has more than enough power to tow at 100kph, but one thing we have found is if the car has a dent high up in the drivers side rear quarter panel, ( below the window line ) this is caused by body flex when the car has towed something heavy and has resulted in the brace under the boot being bent , next to where the towbar mounts. This can result in severe body flex if you tow with to much load on the towbar. If you don't have the dent then you will probably have no worries. Pete

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    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCOATES505
    The sti has more than enough power to tow at 100kph, but one thing we have found is if the car has a dent high up in the drivers side rear quarter panel, ( below the window line ) this is caused by body flex when the car has towed something heavy and has resulted in the brace under the boot being bent , next to where the towbar mounts. This can result in severe body flex if you tow with to much load on the towbar. If you don't have the dent then you will probably have no worries. Pete
    that sounds scary - its not my car and I dont want to bend it by towing. I would not be going above 80 kph because its not mine as well - I dont want to stress it as much as possible.

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    My dear friends,

    If you tow a tandem trailer with car atop you are going to seriously put yourself in danger and fellow motorists.

    The 505 is lucky enough to tow a tandem trailer itself safely let alone something loaded on it.

    I am surprised to see the incorrect advice provided on this subject. PCOATES 505 is the exception.

    Graham I'm surprised.

    Please ralso efer to my reply yesterday to MI16 Weapon on the subject of tow ball/tow bar for Mi16.

    I would suspect that your proposed towing rig may weigh as much as 1700kg, say 500kg for the trailer and 1200kg for the car on top. The down force on the tow bar/hitch to travel safely should be a minumum of 10% of the weight being towed, expect then around 170kg. This alone is way over the limit for a 505 sedan or waggon. Your load would be illegal. You know what the consequenses of that is.

    Here in the ACT a PAC member had a specicially fabricated towing hitch manufactured by an engineer - and it was RTA approved, but the maximum towing capacity was established at 1250kg ie the absolute max the 505 GTI waggon could tow in braked trailer form without doing serious damage to the 505's structure. The modifications required to strengthen towing capacity were expensive. Your vehilcle and I suspect Grahams remain in standard form.

    To put all of this into another perspective. I have towed heavy loads and a caravan for a number of years. My six cylinder car has a towing capacity of 2300kg, an allowable max downforce on the heavy duty tow hitch is 230kg. That's impressive - but I would never tow at the limit - so I have imposed a safety margin - thus I tow no more than 1600kg max.

    My recollection concerning 505 towing capacity is 500kg for an unbraked trailer and 750 or 1000kg for a braked trailer. Download max on tow hitch I think was around 80 kg. But this also depends on the rating provided by the tow bar manufacturer. Home made or dodgy Bros items may be less capable. Your proposed towing rig weight wise is illegal and downright dangerous.

    Forget what you have been told. Over many years I have heard brave stories as to how fellow PUG owners were able to tow this and that - always well over limits. If you were in Iraq fleeing in a Pug you might risk a heavy load - and your life as well.

    In 1991 I was following a VC Holden Commodore, it was towing a tandem trailer, on top of the trailer was a shell of a HT holden. The driver was doing around 90 when all of a sudden the tandem trailer began to fish tail violently - so much that the HT holden lurched into the air and bounced off into the side ditch. The towing vehicle had family on board -luckily all survived - it could have been much worse - especially with traffic going the op direction.

    Please read in conjunction with my other reply to MI 16 weapon.

    The 505 is a strong vehicle - when confronted with an accident for example. The 505 does not have the inherent engineered strength and capacity to tow heavy loads - it is also seriously underpowered for such work. The most I could tow safely with a 604 was 1200kg.

    We live in a big country, often think big too, but we should aslo think intelligently too.

    Cheers ....... Nick

    My advice is do not do it. Hire a towing contractor instead. Cheaper insurance it is.

    Cheers ....... Nick

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    Nick, this is not illegal in Victoria at least and I was just relating my experience which was that it felt very safe and stable.
    The most important thing is to get the trailer loaded correctly with the weight forward, this is of far greater importance than the type of tow vehicle.

    Graham Wallis

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    i knew it would be pushing it a lot, and was only as a last resort. I will be much happier using the landcruiser (they have to be useful for something )

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    Default towing with 505 sti

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    i knew it would be pushing it a lot, and was only as a last resort. I will be much happier using the landcruiser (they have to be useful for something )
    I have to agree with Graham on this keeping the load forward on the trailer without putting excess weight on the towbar is the key to safe towing. Lyn Clifford and myself have done several thousand kilometres towing pugs on trailers behind an sti (with a reinforced towbar) and find they have plenty of power to tow quite safely at 100 kph, and never looked like having a problem with trailer twitch.
    Pete

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    Just some further comments on loading trailers.
    2 weeks ago I towed a 604 rolling shell to Ballarat. This didn't have the engine and gearbox fitted and unfortunately had to be loaded facing forward. As you can imagine the trailer was light at the front and the whole rig was very unstable. Anything 80km/h was dangerous and I was very pleased to arrive intact. This was probably the case with the Commodore you mentioned Nick.
    The return trip with a correctly loaded 404 rolling shell was a pleasure.
    The tow car was a fuel injected 404 ute which has been a fantastic tow car over many years so this wasn't the problem.

    If I seem confident about towing things with 505s it is probably because 30 years ago 30 years ago I was involved with towing a 203 on trailer behind a 403 sedan
    It did this perfectly and I can remember passing cars UP Oliver's Hill in
    Frankston!

    Seriously though, you need to be concentrated in your driving and
    anticipate fully the situation ahead of you. Towing heavy loads is not recommended for inexperenced drivers.

    Graham Wallis

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    Hi all,

    National Towing Regulations apply theses days, including new speed and tow limits. There are still some minor variations between states though, so it seems a bit pointless giving the regs national status. Nevertheless they do reflect some important safety rules that one must abide.

    See the following sites:

    http://boatpoint.ninemsn.com.au/expe...r.asp?ID=19088

    http://www.haymanreese.com.au/index.htm

    http://www.caravanandcampingsa.com.au/advice/005.shtml

    http://www.racv.com.au/safety/safety...p?Layer#topic2

    In Victoria the new national regulations allow for a car to tow up to 1.5 times its own weight - providing this does not exceed a vehicle manufacturers recommendations. Above sites confirm this. Interestingly in NSW it is 1 times the weight of the towing vehicle.

    In practical terms if your 505 weighs 1200kg, you can tow a 1800kg rig.

    Say you were towing a tandem trailer weighing 500g and with a 505 on top you are looking at being on the limit. But Peugeot's Manufactuer's limit is likely to be much less than the towing limit example above. The tow bar also must be suitably rated.

    Anyway the above sites are self explanatory. Happy towing and Pugging.

    Cheers ... Nick

    PS a great GP today - my favourite was Sandra Sully in celbes race !!

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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Though I looked at this thread Sunday morning, I didn't notice the severe nature of your post, Nick I...

    You're kind of stretching things, there, I think.

    It's no big deal to tow a ton and a half behind a 504... not at all! They have much more go than an FC Holden, for instance, and we used to tow fully laden caravans behind them! And look at the difference in brakes!

    There's a lot of garbage about this subject, and I think Graham hit the nail on the head...

    Originally posted by GRAHAM WALLIS
    .....Seriously though, you need to be concentrated in your driving and anticipate fully the situation ahead of you. Towing heavy loads is not recommended for inexperenced drivers.
    Common sense, combined with a little bit of an aptitude for physics and some basic understanding about vehicle dynamics enables you do do these things.

    I haven't yet seen your post on the other thread, so I have no idea what you wrote there, but I don't think there's any need to try and scare people off sensible towing.

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    You are not paying attention to the issues at hand. Sorry, but I'm not scaring people off, and I don't like being treated with disrespect especially since I've gone out of my way to provide informative and critical information provided by industry experts.

    The towing regulations are not designed to scare people off. There has been significant debate on the issue of towing safety for many years. Other experts in the field, not me, and who are extremely well qualified have lobbied government for these regulations - so that we all have a common ground on the issues surrounding towing safety.

    One such person is Tom Olthoff, (do a search) an expert and well know consultant in the field, and who is regularly called upon to investigate serious crashes where towing is involved, and has for many years wrote about, trained people, assisted with police investigations and lobbied for proper regulations. The industry, who are usually most reluctant to change have backed him all the way.

    The regulations are scientifically based along with engineering nounce.

    If you guys know better then go for it, I will stick to regulations which are well proven to be the only safe way to go. I would advise others to follow the regulations.

    Being informed is not about being scared, it's about being sensible - its time to open ones eyes a tad, and think about now and not then - we all got away with lots then - things do advance for the better sometimes.

    Cheers ... Nick

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    these safety regulations are the same as SWL on chains and slings

    the tow balls and tow bars have to be rated to a safe working load and if i read Nick right that is what he is saying

    yes i have towed a 604 or 2 behind a 604 and i did so only a couple of years ago plus trailer

    was i illegal ? yes

    would i do it again ? only in a pinch and there was no other way around it
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    Thanks for the support on this isssue Pugrambo (Sean).

    I am deeply concerned that government bodies concerned with the regulatiosn seem to have failed miserably at getting the message across. Or are people simply ignorant - or maybe both.

    They (governments) are more interested in speed camera revenue - incidently around 1700 people die on our roads each year - CSIRO recently announced that around 2400 people die each year from pollution. Maybe we need pollution cameras too !!

    Cheers .. Nick

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i have towed all over this state and a few times over the borders and i always have it in my mind that the only thing connecting the car to the trailer is that towball

    yes they are strong but hey everything fatigues over time

    if the ball breaks off you only have the chains to save the trailer from killing someone else and when was the last time you saw someone use something other than mild steel chain or even better something has been sitting on the trailer for the last 15 years

    my last car trailer i had i used lifting chain and was replaced every 12months regardless

    BTW once a lifting chain has been used to "snig" it can never be used to lift again under the safety regs
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    yeah true, but I'm aluding to much more than just balls and chains. Gosh that sounds off!!

    Cheers ...... Nick

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    i towed about 2 and a half ton behind my wagon with no touble at all... even had to drive through sloshy mud and that was no worry
    63' 403 Sedan, Cream (OMY-403)
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    "i towed about 2 and a half ton behind my wagon with no touble at all... even had to drive through sloshy mud and that was no worry"

    Well Timmy what can I say. You are either a hero to be worshipped or potentially a temporary Australian.

    I recall Flash from the Canberra Peugeot Association recalling his trip back from South Aus towing a car trailer, with some car stuff on top plus he stopped by a cannery and loaded the whole rig mit plenty of canned stuff. What a hero - not

    Please access the sites that I have provided, inform yourself, maybe even call your motoring org and ask them about the national towing regs.
    They are there for a very good reason.

    By the way the 504 waggon's towing capacity was far more generous than the 505 wagon. Check the specs in your handbook.

    I would like to know what Peugeot have stated as towing capacities for braked and unbraked trailers, and max load on the tow bar - for your car. I look forward to your reply.

    Cheers .. Nick

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    Yes I can see where you are coming from Nick but I have to say that loike all driving it comes down to the nut behind the wheel that can cause or prevent an accident. Rules and regulations are there to try and eliminate the idiot factor,not rule out common sense.
    I myself have towed cars on car trailers with 604's 504's 505's and a406 HDI all did the job admirably and with out any fuss or damage to the vehicle.
    I have , on the other hand seenan enormous amount of body flex in a Commdore from towng a horse float which it was apparrently legally able to do!!

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    Hey Hakon,

    what is the car that will be on top of the trailer, a mini possibly a BMW Issota

    Seriously who mentioned 500kg is what a rental car trailer weights... Nope: Those checkplate heavy duty rental trailer weight 800kgs empty, then add the ramps etc and you'll be upto 850kg That's JUST the trailer with no car on it (already you over the tow capacity of a lot of cars even without a car on top).

    If the car was 504 size or smaller that was to be put on the trailer I'd tow it from within an hour of my place. I wouldn't use a rental trailer if at all possible, a well designed car trailer will weigh HALF the amount of those rental places. I've towed CX's and DS's behind CX's. I usually put what I'd guesstimate to be a couple of 1-200kgs on the towbar, and drive VERY sedately. If it was through melbourne or any distance I'd use a transport company, it's just not worth the risk.

    eg. I had a friend ask me to tow a DS19 upto Canberra for him at easter (behind my CX GTi Turbo), the answer to no consideration at all --not a bloody hope in hell, I'd use a transporter myself for that distance.

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    I suppose I might as well add my two bobs worth having towed a thing or two with Pugs and other things. Most of it's already been said.

    404s, 504s & 505's are great tow cars.
    Any of them in good nick could pull the car carrier trailer at speed.
    If nothing goes wrong, you will arrive feeling that it was a safe trip.
    If the trailer starts wagging the car, you are unlikely to pull out of it unless....
    you have power to burn and can accelerate hard. (Not an option),
    you have excess road width to play with, and nobody coming towards you,
    or the trailer brakes can be applied independently. (These trailers usually have override brakes which means you have to make things worse before the brakes come on).

    Cheers,
    Warwick.

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    i fully agree with graham and ray on this matter and think that nick i might have hes hand on it!505's weigh approx 1200kgs and should tow without any real drama.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    if the average sedan is the thing to tow cars around with then all the towies must have it wrong

    why would they put money into a truck when all they need is a family sedan and a trailer

    what Nick is trying to say is that there are laws that are in place to ensure there is a safety margin to try and prevent the untimely death of people on our roads

    i am yet to be convinced of a family car to be safe towing something that far outwieghs the towing vehicle

    yes people have donw it time and time again and have lived to tell the tale

    hell i have done it but as i stated before i would only do it in a pinch

    404s, 504s & 505's are great tow cars.
    Any of them in good nick could pull the car carrier trailer at speed.
    as for at speed towing i feel you are playing with danger. the more speed you are carrying the harder and more dangerous it gets if the trailer starts to wag and you are sure to end up in the obits the following week
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    crikey - forgot to check this thread and am surprised at the response! I have towed silly combinations before, like a Rover 2000 on a 800 kg hire trailer behind another Rover 2000. Very scary (though the Rover coped very well - takes more than that sort of abuse to hurt one of those great old tanks ) but I was on the limit of the suspensions ability to control the load and I could very much feel the much heavier load trying to tell me where to go - not a good feeling on windy country roads!!! Even with my little R10 on a hire trailer behind the Rover I had a couple of "moments" travelling on the freeway back to the country after I blew the diff up on it...

    Its pretty simple physics and common sense that it is not a good idea to have the towing vehicle which should be making the directional decisions to be lighter than the towed load.

    This was all aimed at retrieving an 1150 kg Renault 21 from Warragul to Melbourne - about 90 km along the freeway. But the Pug is not my car (I definantly dont want to hurt someone elses car!!) and I dont think the towbar is rated for that sort of load anyway.
    And given that it will cost $50 for a trailer hire and at least $50 in petrol towing that sort of load, the offer of delivery on a flat bed tow truck for $150 is looking pretty sensible and a lot less hassle

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    And given that it will cost $50 for a trailer hire and at least $50 in petrol towing that sort of load, the offer of delivery on a flat bed tow truck for $150 is looking pretty sensible and a lot less hassle

    for that sort of money i wouldn't have even thought of getting a trailer and towing the car

    $150 for a flat bed is a good deal and so much easier for yourself

    that has to be one of the best ways to carry any vehicle (unless it's a dead cit)

    go for the flat bed as i know i would if i had someone that was going to pick up and deliver a car for me for $150
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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