405 Mi16 S1 timing belt tension V2 - arrrgh!
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 35
Like Tree3Likes

Thread: 405 Mi16 S1 timing belt tension V2 - arrrgh!

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default 405 Mi16 S1 timing belt tension V2 - arrrgh!

    Hi guys,

    Advertisement


    This is driving me absolutely crazy. I've just replaced the belt and tensioners on my Mi16 and am having issues getting the tension right. I've consulted Peter T and the 205GTi forum and eventually all seemed OK, but there's a concern...

    I've done this before, so it's not like I'm inexperienced. But I got the tension to where I thought it was right with the twist test and the pins, and it was whining a fair bit, so Peter suggested I back off the exhaust side tensioner until it stopped whining. Which I did, but it seems too loose now because the front run (where you test the tension) is flapping against the plastic surround at a narrow band of revs, around 2500 from the sound of it. I can't help thinking this could damage the back of the belt eventually.

    The inlet side tensioner as is the norm is quite tight so it's not that this is allowing the front run to sit too close to the surround.

    Do any of you let your belts run with a slight whine? I hate it, but hitting the surround isn't good either, as it's at a point where there's an edge.

    I'd really appreciate some advice.

    Cheers

    Stu


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,000

    Default

    What do you think creates the whine? If it's bearing whine, maybe the tension is a bit too much as you suspected, but not that much. A test would be to see if the whine is there cold and hot. As you know, the belt is going to tighten when hot so perhaps a bit less tight when cold (i.e. when you check the tension) would be okay.

    I always relied on my hand feel and never had a problem. Doing the belt in wife's Mi16 was done by the twist method. The tension was such that I could almost twist the belt to 90 deg on both long runs. Almost. I thought that was tight enough, and since it didn't have any noises it did not have before changing the belt (the car had an exemplary service record) I considered it fine.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    I'm pretty sure the standard overtightened belt whine sound is from the teeth meshing, not bearings. It's that sound people describe as a supercharger sound.

    The front belt flapping against the surround is a common thing people warn you about on these engines, I believe. It only happens at a narrow rev range, when the front run resonates. I have the front tensioner at almost maximum; just backed off a fraction.

    Just to correct myself, the belt is hitting the surround not at an edge, but where it curves sharply.
    Chris T likes this.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,618

    Default

    As Shultz says a twist just short of 90 but on the front run I found to be just right. Alloy engines are supposed to 'grow' when hot, so a slightly slack belt when setting cold seems to work best. From memory when I used standard pulleys I had the rear one fully adjusted and moved the front for the correct twist and made sure the pins all fitted and the crank pulley lined up.

    I think the belt covers distort over time & I haven't seen one that didn't show some rubbing on it.

    BTW-the correct direction to adjust the pulleys is anti-clock.
    Track car-Steel Grey 405 Mi16 2.2 litre


    405 Track car build thread moved to-
    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...ic=143279&st=0

    Lap times-
    Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    Thanks Jeff. The 'standard' instructions seem to be the front one fully tensioned and the rear one used for adjustment, so that's possibly what you remember. Yep, am doing them anti clockwise.

    My cover doesn't have any rubs on it yet, but it's about to! Damn annoying though; I don't usually have any issues with jobs like this, but this one's getting to me. Unfortunately it's taken me three weekends as I've only had an hour or so to fiddle with the car each time.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Mungous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    335

    Default

    I usually tighten it until the belt stops flapping against the cover and put up with any whining. One of my BXs runs silently using this method, and the other (with all new bearings and water pump) whines likes a [email protected]

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    That's interesting Mungous! I've just come in after retensioning the front tensioner to maximum to get the most clearance, then loosening the rear tensioner to eliminate whine. Now the front run flaps quite badly - at approximately 2500 at a very specific engine speed it resonates and flaps about 25mm. It also happens after you rev the engine and it passes through that engine speed when slowing down. You can hear it slapping on the plastic.

    I haven't even tried the pins, although I started from a position of them all fitting nicely.

    I think it's this kind of flapping that fatigues the belt as well. Its like continuously snapping a belt tight.

    Mungous, were yours the same brand and type of belt? I'm just wondering if this might have an effect. I used Dayco last time and this time the AE belt from a kit. I doubt it would make a difference.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,259

    Default

    My 2 litre SRi has a loud whine when cold, goes away when hot. This seems to be common to these engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    As Shultz says a twist just short of 90 but on the front run I found to be just right. Alloy engines are supposed to 'grow' when hot, so a slightly slack belt when setting cold seems to work best. From memory when I used standard pulleys I had the rear one fully adjusted and moved the front for the correct twist and made sure the pins all fitted and the crank pulley lined up.

    I think the belt covers distort over time & I haven't seen one that didn't show some rubbing on it.

    BTW-the correct direction to adjust the pulleys is anti-clock.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    I didn't respond to that before, but mine whined cold or hot until I loosened the belt off to a certain point. It's as the other guys said now; just a little less than 90 degrees twist.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Mungous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    335

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    That's interesting Mungous! I've just come in after retensioning the front tensioner to maximum to get the most clearance, then loosening the rear tensioner to eliminate whine. Now the front run flaps quite badly - at approximately 2500 at a very specific engine speed it resonates and flaps about 25mm. It also happens after you rev the engine and it passes through that engine speed when slowing down. You can hear it slapping on the plastic.

    I haven't even tried the pins, although I started from a position of them all fitting nicely.

    I think it's this kind of flapping that fatigues the belt as well. Its like continuously snapping a belt tight.

    Mungous, were yours the same brand and type of belt? I'm just wondering if this might have an effect. I used Dayco last time and this time the AE belt from a kit. I doubt it would make a difference.
    The quiet car has a Gates belt, and the noisy car has a Dayco.

    I suspected the new tensioner bearings were faulty, so swapped them for known good second hand ones. No difference. Which only leaves the new water pump as a source, but I can't be arsed changing it on the off chance - besides, it's in my track car so I can cope with the additional noise!

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    Drove it this morning, and you can hear the belt hitting the surround only as it passes that specific rev point. Argh.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    So here's the 'Stuey Technique' (TM). I put the homemade tensioner tool on the rear tensioner, facing vertically, fired up the car, and stuck a piece of aluminium tube on the tool as a lever, without loosening the bolt on the tensioner. Then I just revved the car with the throttle bellcrank, through the dodgy rev range continuously and tightened the tensioner by force until the belt was just missing the surround. It'll whine a bit, but I reckon that's safer than whacking on the surround for the life of the belt.
    Chris T likes this.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Mungous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    335

    Default

    Perfect - almost exactly how I do mine! Saves on grated knuckles...

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    I'd like to know why it whines though. The only variable is the belt as far as I can figure.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Mungous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    335

    Default

    I am also very curious. I'm still suspicious of my new water pump though, as it is the only thing left I haven't swapped out.

    The whining started after I fitted a new belt, pump and tensioners, and hasn't gone away after swapping out the new tensioners or the new belt (I'm now actually on my third belt - the first got cut by a stone, and the second was destroyed by a failed (new) alternator belt).

    Which only really leaves the water pump, but I've checked it with a stethoscope and can't hear any unusual bearing noise.

    I've managed to convince myself that the noise is the result of losing some sound deadening when I fitted the roll cage! 😀

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    1,376

    Default

    Mine whines the same and it's a Gates belt changed 6 weeks ago. I tried different variances of tensioning as well but with not alot of success. (Actually, I was testing to see if the different roller (bearing) positions altered the timing). Doesn't bother me - sounds kinda cool actually.

    The whine (IMHO) is caused by the tension between the two cam gears. Remember these wheels are really tight to move by hand and when held together buy a toothed belt, rotating at a certain speed of course will make noise at a resonant frequency which will increase with engine RPM. Im suprised I don't hear it more often from other makes.
    Last edited by PugMonkey; 10th September 2014 at 09:52 AM.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PugMonkey View Post
    The whine (IMHO) is caused by the tension between the two cam gears. Remember these wheels are really tight to move by hand and when held together buy a toothed belt, rotating at a certain speed of course will make noise at a resonant frequency which will increase with engine RPM. Im suprised I don't hear it more often from other makes.
    Wouldn't the tension be same same all around the belt? If there was excessive tension between the cam gears they would just rotate to equalize but change the timing as a result?

    I think the whine comes from the engagement of the rubber teeth into the 4 toothed pulleys when overtightened.
    Track car-Steel Grey 405 Mi16 2.2 litre


    405 Track car build thread moved to-
    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...ic=143279&st=0

    Lap times-
    Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pgti6 View Post
    I think the whine comes from the engagement of the rubber teeth into the 4 toothed pulleys when overtightened.
    Me too. I've always thought this, but this time can't alleviate it without the belt being slightly too loose, which is why I'm thinking it might be affected by the belt construction/type.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,000

    Default

    If that were true, as the belt beds in the whine should go away.

    Does it?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    North Rocks, Sydney
    Posts
    2,439

    Default

    My 205 16v did it only for about 2 years, it has now stopped and is quite quiet! Stretched?
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  21. #21
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    North Parramatta
    Posts
    3,997

    Default

    I've got me a dodgy video copy of a Peugeot training series on tensioning the belt on a 405 Mi16 motor.

    I think I've managed to now upload it to Youtube...

    Regards,

    Simon

    2018 308 GTi 2011 DS3 DSport
    ----
    2014 208 GTi 2007 207 GTi 2004 206 GTi180 2000 206 GTi 1995 306 XT

    www.peugeotclub.asn.au

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts pgti6's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,618

    Default

    I've always used Dayco belts and more often than not when tensioned a bit less than 90 they don't whine. I've got Conti Tech belt in the shed which I've never used & the tooth profile is quite different. The base of the tooth is excessively rounded where the Dayco are more flat sided with a tiny radius on each side of the teeth.
    Maybe this change of profile was an attempt to reduce the whine?
    Track car-Steel Grey 405 Mi16 2.2 litre


    405 Track car build thread moved to-
    http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index...ic=143279&st=0

    Lap times-
    Sandown 1 27.9
    Phillip Island 1 53.8

    Previous Frenchies-
    1988 205Gti
    1998 306 GTi6
    1997 306 N5 sedan
    1996 306 N3 XT hatch
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Avocado
    1976 Renault R16TS manual in Trak Yellow
    1975 Renault 5 Guernsey, Channel Islands
    1972 Renault 4 Guernsey, Channel Islands

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    I know what you mean Jeff. Actually, I think the current Dayco belts have that profile like the Contis, they call it CWC. The equivalent in Gates is 'Curvilinear' for the small radius on the base of the tooth, as per their T188, and 'Modified Curvilinear' for the other shape, in their T249, which otherwise are identical belts.

    The AE belt I have now has a very sharp 'corner' at the base of the curved tooth. Last time, I used a Dayco belt 94464 which is the same as their 94155 (the one specified for the Mi16) but is made from HSN, a more durable 'rubber'. As I've said before on here, the 94155 has chloroprene base rubber, which is less durable. Most of the long life belts, if not all, are made from HSN.

    Both have the CWC profile.

    Incidentally, it whined last time but I knew I had it too tight.
    Last edited by Stuey; 10th September 2014 at 04:13 PM.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    6,493

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    If that were true, as the belt beds in the whine should go away.

    Does it?
    I'm not sure a belt really beds in. The Kevlar (or whatever braid they use on the tooth surfaces) prevents permanent tooth deformation or wear. And Gates say their belts stretch typically 1% - I'd imagine they're all similar, otherwise they'd be useless.
    Last edited by Stuey; 10th September 2014 at 04:14 PM.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts PugMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    1,376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SLC206 View Post
    I've got me a dodgy video copy of a Peugeot training series on tensioning the belt on a 405 Mi16 motor.

    I think I've managed to now upload it to Youtube...

    Yeah OK I got it..... Now do all of that when the engine is IN the car. I dunno about any one else, but I could not get any dowel pins into the cam wheels due to lack of bloody room. And hell yeah, there is a heap of real estate to put one of those electronic thingies to measure belt tension.

    Oh and I forgot - try not to kink the belt when your feeding it down between the engine mount, alternator and inner guard with rubber gloves, cut fingers and boney wrists.

    Come back down to earth Mr teacher!

    FWIW - I do like training videos..... Good find.
    ....now watch a Peugeot turn into a corner!

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •