How to improve a Peugeot 205 Gti
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  1. #1
    Member iMate's Avatar
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    Default How to improve a Peugeot 205 Gti

    Hi Gents,

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    I currently owned a S3 Peugeot 205 Gti that had covered 220,000kms, so far the car works very well and has given me many enjoyable moments.

    I would like to "personalise" the car and make it better, maybe a little bit like singer vehicle design does to Porsche of course without the price tag.

    I am therefore seeking advices/tips/recommendations from fellow froggers on what would be achievable; I would like to insist in the fact that I want to retain the original 1900cc 8v engine. I am based in Perth and was wondering if parts and companies able to modify/tune these cars were present in Wa or interstate alternatively.

    So far I was thinking of a throttle bodies conversion along with aftermarket computer, maybe some cams etc...

    Looking forward to hearing from you all.

    Thanks,
    Diego.

  2. #2
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    Cars / Improvement.

    Pretty much always the same.....start with a big bucket of money and take from it. Assuming you are looking at performance gains. IMHO best bang for buck gains in order.

    1) Check rear beam and rebuild if required. If rebuilding you may look to change torsion and arb (bars)
    2) Better quality brake pads
    3) Replace gear linkages to new ones
    4) replace shocks - Koni's seem to be best value (Spax?)
    5) Replace LCA bushes in front
    6) 4.4 (MI16 ratio) in box
    7) Look for engine gains (cam and Ecu or transplant mi16/ s16 etc)
    Current Stable
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    Previous Pugs
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    This is my order, similar but different to Maxi's.

    1) Check rear beam and rebuild if required. If rebuilding you may look to change torsion and arb (bars)
    2) LSD
    3) 3.94 (early 205) or 4.06 in box. 4.43 is too low for a street driven 8V
    4) Replace gear linkages to new ones
    5) replace shocks - B6 Bilsteins.
    6) Replace LCA bushes in front
    7) Look for engine gains (head skim, thinner head gasket, mild porting, maybe a cam change)
    8) ECU change, depending how much you changed on point 7.

    Just make sure you don't bodge stuff, so it isn't fully reversible. The ECU for example, can be changed by completely removing the standard loom and ECU, then mounting the new ECU's and relays on a plate in the original position.
    Last edited by PeterT; 25th August 2014 at 07:40 PM.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Thank you 205 Maxi and Peter T, really appreciate your input.

    Peter, where could it be possible to get some work done (properly) to the head (ref skim, porting, etc...)?

    I am keen on ordering jenvey throttle bodies, fuel rail, etc... to match with dellorto inlet manifold and aftermarket ecu. Would you know of someone able to machine the inlet manifold to make them match perfectly?

    Thanks again,
    Diego.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    My best advice, is to send your complete head and inlet manifold to RAMS Head Service, Windsor, NSW. They'll recondition, port, match the manifold, etc. I'll work with them on the cam swap. They can reassemble, shim etc. They'll send back a fully setup head, ready to bolt back on. Depending how much you skim, you'll also need to modify the top engine mount.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Some very nice mi 16s available but. Could broaden your horizons and not only go well but have a civilised ride at the same time. Or do what P T says just remember he is a tad biased.

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    Can of worms

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Or do what P T says just remember he is a tad biased.
    In what way? I didn't even suggest he puts a 16V in it. I was being very conservative.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    That's true you were Peter mm he was Why

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    Thanks again guys!

    Peter that sounds great to send the head to that company in NSW; how much skim would you recommend?

    You also mentioned replaced the shocks with Billstein B6, I've read somewhere that there are not recommended to use with lowered springs, could anyone confirm this?

    Thanks,
    Diego.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    There are companies in WA that can help.

    My advice to make your car better would be to start by bringing it back to its former glory. A new (reco) head is a good starting point, but what about the pistons and cylinders? Are they up to scratch? New kits are difficult to find, and may leave you short of money (depending on budget).

    A lot of people started by trying to improve cars that worked perfectly fine and ended up selling "project" cars that are still passed on to this day without much progress. There's quite a few threads like that floating about.

    Keep in mind tuning an aftermarket ECU setup is not as easy as some might make it sound. Look up chez's thread to see how it's done and think if you can find/access that kind of expertise/workshop then try to work out how much that could cost you (how about if you had to send your engine over east?). Do you have the money? Go ahead. No? Well, . . .

    There are other aspects as well. Once you have a quick car your bodyshell will show signs of weakness. It is after all a tinfoil shell held together with french spit. Check the corners of the plastic grille around your wipers. Are the corner screw holes cracked or broken? If yes, your car has been driven quite quickly around some corners. The body flexes and the plastic is strained, until eventually the screws break the plastic. More power and quick corners will result in more strain on the chassis. Eventually the shell starts pulling its seams open (read about cracks at the top of the C and B pillars). I bet that is not the kind of improvement you're chasing.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 25th August 2014 at 11:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    There are companies in WA that help.
    Thanks for that, do you have any name please? Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    (how about if you had to send your engine over east?). Do you have the money? Go ahead. No? Well, . . .
    Yes I am ready to send my entire engine (or even the whole car) to the east coast if that's what will give me a quality job. I don't have tens of thousand to be spend of the car but I have a sufficient budget to get what would give me something special and more importantly properly done (I hope!).
    Happy to discuss my budget in Mp with people that have contact interested to be part of this project.
    Thanks.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Choosing companies to do quality work is always an issue. The company I suggested is one of the most experienced and advanced in the country. For example cutting valve seats, they use a Newen:

    See the Newen in action | Rams Head Service

    It cuts seats and throats, quickly and accurately in one operation. The cost saving in time is passed on to the customer and the quality 2nd to none. You don't lap seats after they've been done on the Newen. That would be a backward step. If comparing companies, that would be my first question, "How do you cut valve seats? With a Newen?" It's well worth the $100 in return freight for the quality of work.

    I also get them to skim blocks for me. They get the liner protrusion +/- 0.00025" all around the block.

    RAMS would also be the only Australian company that sells V8 heads to the USA.

    Yep, I'd recommend them to anyone that wants quality work at a fair price.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Choosing companies to do quality work is always an issue. The company I suggested is one of the most experienced and advanced in the country. For example cutting valve seats, they use a Newen:

    See the Newen in action | Rams Head Service

    It cuts seats and throats, quickly and accurately in one operation. The cost saving in time is passed on to the customer and the quality 2nd to none. You don't lap seats after they've been done on the Newen. That would be a backward step. If comparing companies, that would be my first question, "How do you cut valve seats? With a Newen?" It's well worth the $100 in return freight for the quality of work.

    I also get them to skim blocks for me. They get the liner protrusion +/- 0.00025" all around the block.

    RAMS would also be the only Australian company that sells V8 heads to the USA.

    Yep, I'd recommend them to anyone that wants quality work at a fair price.
    PM sent Peter, thanks.

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    Fellow Frogger! deltone's Avatar
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    There are alot of modifications on this thread... Can someone put a power gain figure on thes mods?

    i really dont think its worth spending all this time and money modifying heads and all on the original 8v if the purpose is a decent power increase. These engines were already engineered to get the most out of them from factory. How much more can be had by modifying it further??

    If this was me and i wanted to retain the 8v i would rebuild it accordingly, and either turbocharge or supercharge the engine along with a new ECU. You will maintain drivability and also gain alot of power and it will be a cool setup.

    Diego, if you get the engine modified a fair bit, i would recommend a new ECU at the same time.
    205 GTi T16

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltone View Post

    i really dont think its worth spending all this time and money modifying heads and all on the original 8v if the purpose is a decent power increase. These engines were already engineered to get the most out of them from factory. How much more can be had by modifying it further??
    I may not have explained myself clearly. Whether you're reconditioning a 205 head, a V8 Supercar head or a lawn mower, the valves have to seat & seal correctly. This process starts with having round guides and cutting concentric seats. Whether you choose to modify a head after getting the basics correct is a personal choice. I'm certainly not suggesting CNC porting.

    The standard 205 single angle valve seat is horrible and flows quite poorly. To suggest the factory did their best with them is naive. Even just cutting a 3 angle seat improves these heads enormously. Hence my recommendation.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by deltone View Post
    Diego, if you get the engine modified a fair bit, i would recommend a new ECU at the same time.
    Thanks for your input Luca, any brand that you would recommend red aftermarket ECU?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    The standard 205 single angle valve seat is horrible and flows quite poorly. To suggest the factory did their best with them is naive. Even just cutting a 3 angle seat improves these heads enormously. Hence my recommendation.
    Thanks for that Peter; would the company in NSW that you recommended be able to assist with this? I have also sent you a PM yesterday.

    Thanks!

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Performance engine modifications in Osborne Pk will do a three angle cut on your valves. They did my head and it came out very well indeed (cost 800$ and included new guides, camshaft reground to original specs, refacing and shimming the valve buckets and head assembly).

    There are many other companies around here doing all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff. Heck, you can even have a new CNC block from billet aluminium if you want. Your budget is the limit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Performance engine modifications in Osborne Pk will do a three angle cut on your valves. They did my head and it came out very well indeed (cost 800$ and included new guides, camshaft reground to original specs, refacing and shimming the valve buckets and head assembly).

    There are many other companies around here doing all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff. Heck, you can even have a new CNC block from billet aluminium if you want. Your budget is the limit.
    Thanks for that, it sounds good. Would you know how do they cut valve seats by any chance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I may not have explained myself clearly. Whether you're reconditioning a 205 head, a V8 Supercar head or a lawn mower, the valves have to seat & seal correctly. This process starts with having round guides and cutting concentric seats. Whether you choose to modify a head after getting the basics correct is a personal choice. I'm certainly not suggesting CNC porting.

    The standard 205 single angle valve seat is horrible and flows quite poorly. To suggest the factory did their best with them is naive. Even just cutting a 3 angle seat improves these heads enormously. Hence my recommendation.


    yes i get that, i got three angle valve cuts on my 8v but how much power would this mod add in horsepower terms? You say it improves the had enormously, how much power are we talking here? 5-10-15-50 HP?

    My fully rebuilt, new piston and liner, new bearings and fully rebuilt series 3 head with series 3 cam and 3 angle cuts with 10.5:1 compression ratio came to 97HP at the wheels with a haltech ECU. What Hp is a standard 8V at the wheels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by iMate View Post
    Thanks for your input Luca, any brand that you would recommend red aftermarket ECU?

    Thanks

    Diego, i have had Haltech in the past and for the application i haven't got any complaints. At some stage i am upgrading to the latest model Haltech. Its made in Australia and the Haltech guys over east have always been very helpfull to me as well.


    There are all sorts of other brands out these as well. Autronic seems to be the best on the market?
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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltone View Post
    What Hp is a standard 8V at the wheels?
    Horse power figures for the different variants of the engine:-

    http://www.205gtidrivers.com/info/techspecs.html

    I think they are at flywheel numbers.
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iMate View Post
    Thanks for that, it sounds good. Would you know how do they cut valve seats by any chance?

    Hmmm. Maybe you shouldn't modify your engine after all.

    What does the first sentence in my post you quoted say?

    I think the most reliable info on seriously (and by that I mean professionally, not necessarily radically) modified 8V engine is in chez's thread. I think he ended up with about 160HP (correction?) at the flywheel. Again, read his thread before you start throwing money at your car. He is the only one who documented the entire process start to finish step by step inclduing the results after modifications, and not by seat of pants, either.

    This is quite decent from a NA 2L engine. More is perhaps possible but as always, the law of diminishing returns starts to eat into your budget.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 27th August 2014 at 11:11 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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