New build: Peugeot 504 coupe rally car
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Thread: New build: Peugeot 504 coupe rally car

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default New build: Peugeot 504 coupe rally car

    As some of you know, I have a works 504 coupe rally car that I recently retired from competition after a number of close calls. But it still goes out once a month for some spirited driving . I decided to build a replacement, a replica of the works car but with some improvements to weight, suspension and steering.
    The color chosen was a dark battleship gray, the stealth color a welcome change after the multicolor livery of the works car. The original plan was to use a spare works 2.8 liter PRV that puts out a hair less than 200 bhp ATW, but my experience with the works car has been that the rest of the drivetrain cannot handle this power very well; clutches, BA10/5 gearboxes, driveshafts and diffs have a very limited life span, around 500 special stage kilometers. So I opted to install our most powerful XN2 instead, one with 138 bhp ATW and good low-down torque. We did the first shakedown in May, in a section of an old Acropolis stage, the in-car from that can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukpLm3woIaA
    Some of you will notice that Peugeot has been misspelled in the opening credits, I didn't have the heart to tell the 14 year-old editor.
    I was blown away by the handling of the car, it was the best 504 I had ever driven. The gearbox was a wide ratio BA10/5 from a US 505 turbo and a bit gappy for this engine, so a change to a standard BA7/4 was made. The stock box seems to handle the extra power just fine. The shakedown stage was flat and the New build: Peugeot 504 coupe rally car-_dsc8694.jpgNew build: Peugeot 504 coupe rally car-_dsc8743.jpgNew build: Peugeot 504 coupe rally car-makryrachi-2.jpg
    power seemed more than adequate, so I thought that I should stay with the XN2 engine. I was offered the opportunity to be the zero car in the historic Acropolis the following month and I took it, thinking that you can't get a better shakedown: 200 km of bitumen and gravel stages in all sorts of terrain and average speeds. I quickly realized that the car needed more power to be competitive. In the flat and downhill stages, especially the rough ones, I was sharing the top times with the Lancia 037's and the 911 RSR's and in the uphill stages I was lucky to break into the top 15. The car was a joy to drive, very tossable even though it was the biggest car in the event. Here are a few seconds going through an S in a gravel stage: O Car Part 1 - YouTube
    You will notice how easily it transitions through the apexes with minimal effort. So a decision has been made to put the works V6 in the car. I am approaching this with excitement but also with a little trepidation as I know that I will have to look for more spare gearboxes and diffs. I think I will forgo the fifth gear and opt for a BA10/4 they seem much stronger than the BA10/5 boxes. As for the diff, one can always hope...


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    Last edited by ThanosK; 18th August 2014 at 09:01 AM.
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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    Sweet! Too bad we only made it to Santorini this summer. I would love to see your cars in person one day! Congratulations.
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    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Nice work Thanos, and good to see your name on Aussiefrogs again!

    Opposite lock happening in every picture you put up, was that deliberate??

    Sent from my SHV-E370K using Tapatalk
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



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    Fantastic car, Thanos! Thanks. Keep us updated.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    WOW!!!!!

    Makes me REALLY want to get another 504 now!

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    Great to hear from you Thanos
    Adrian Wuillemin

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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    Nice work Thanos, and good to see your name on Aussiefrogs again!

    Opposite lock happening in every picture you put up, was that deliberate??

    Sent from my SHV-E370K using Tapatalk
    Hi John. I have been on AF frequently, but I had forgotten my password and I was not signing in; not much to report anyway in the past two years. The opposite lock is deliberate, this is how you drive fast a RWD rally car on gravel, especially a heavy car like the 504. The three photos were taken during a Car & Driver road test and each time there is a different driver (I drive in the third photo and the two videos). All drivers drifted into turns, some more than others. Not only is it faster, it's also a lot of FUN!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wuillemi View Post
    Great to hear from you Thanos
    Thanks, Adrian, I hope all is well with you and the family. I think of your father often when I drive my 504's or when people ask how we coaxed so much power out of these engines. "There was this great man I met in an Australian forum, and he really helped me out...."
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    acf321..... check your notifications and your wishes could come true! Neil

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    What did the works V6 engines do, in terms of head bolts and torqueing?

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    WLB
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    Good to see you back Thanos; and to see that you've got yourself a big project.
    I'll be watching with interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    What did the works V6 engines do, in terms of head bolts and torqueing?
    Adam

    The key difference is made by the fact that the works liners are o-ringed. But this is high precision work, to be attempted only by the very competent.

    As for the rest, we use Aus sourced annealed copper gaskets (Ridgecrest, they are excellent and we use them for all our engines) , re-use the standard head bolts and torque them to 10.5 or 11 kilos.
    Last edited by ThanosK; 21st August 2014 at 04:03 AM.

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    Glad to see you here again Thanos! And you run the 504 and works with them still:-)
    Is curious about them changes you made on the new 504, to get a better handling and steering .....

    Good luck with your new 504 project !! :-)

    Bobby

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Thanks. The figures seemed low - I hadn't previously read the wire ringed addition to your original post.

    I hoped you were using TTY bolts; have seen figures all over the shop (120-180°) for final torque and looking for a definitive answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    ...I hoped you were using TTY bolts; .
    I think it is best to not use TTY's for rally engines. Next time we open the engine I plan to convert the head bolts to studs.
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Of course. My interests are purely selfish, looking for expert cures to my evenfire sealing anxieties.

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    Hi Thanos
    Pleased to see that you are still Peugeot-ing, You may be able to help with some Bilstein shocks for a 504 once again???
    Hope to hear from you
    Brian
    Australia
    [email protected]

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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    I also wonder whether you have any leads on OEM Peugeot made rear shocks for the 404. Any old stock in Greece?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Tippett View Post
    I also wonder whether you have any leads on OEM Peugeot made rear shocks for the 404. Any old stock in Greece?
    I am in Vail right now, but will be back in Greece on Wednesday. I will check then and get back to you.
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  20. #20
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    Default 504 rally car

    Hi Thanos

    If you find two sets of 404 rear shockers, I would be interested in one ( Mike asked first )

    Currently using Konis, which can be reconditioned, but would be interested in original

    Andrew Watkins

    Quote Originally Posted by ThanosK View Post
    I am in Vail right now, but will be back in Greece on Wednesday. I will check then and get back to you.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThanosK View Post
    The original plan was to use a spare works 2.8 liter PRV that puts out a hair less than 200 bhp ATW, but my experience with the works car has been that the rest of the drivetrain cannot handle this power very well; clutches, BA10/5 gearboxes, driveshafts and diffs have a very limited life span, around 500 special stage kilometers.
    . So a decision has been made to put the works V6 in the car. I am approaching this with excitement but also with a little trepidation as I know that I will have to look for more spare gearboxes and diffs. I think I will forgo the fifth gear and opt for a BA10/4 they seem much stronger than the BA10/5 boxes. As for the diff, one can always hope...
    I find it very strange that you are having drive shaft and diff problems with the V6.
    I have being running a EFI 3.0L V6 , with 150Kw at the wheels , since 2010 and have had no diff or drive shaft failures.
    I am using standard 604 drive shafts , and when a boot splits, I just grab another second hand one from the pile and throw it in.
    My diff is a 4.625 with a Detroit locker . only ever changed the oil a few times.The factory cone type LSD was useless as it did not have enough bite to work in a rally car and did not take very long to polish the cup and cone.
    The gear box on the other hand was a BA10/5 but broken syncrows prompted me to fit my AZ6 Toyota 6 speed box , as expected no problems at all ( except it was a bit too big for the tunnel )

    Andy
    What type of failures are you having?
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    I am using standard 604 drive shafts...
    By drive shaft I meant the prop shaft connecting gearbox and diff. The splines get sheared or the spline end splits or breaks off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    The gear box on the other hand was a BA10/5 but broken syncrows prompted me to fit my AZ6 Toyota 6 speed box...
    I had the problems you describe with the BA10/5, and FIA homologation rules do not allow a Toyota gearbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    My diff is a 4.625 with a Detroit locker . only ever changed the oil a few times.The factory cone type LSD was useless as it did not have enough bite to work in a rally car and did not take very long to polish the cup and cone.
    The cup and cone get polished off after a day or two of rallying. Is a Detroit locker 100% lock? Our rules don't allow that. If not, do you have a part number?


    Thanks, Andy!

  23. #23
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    [QUOTE=ThanosK;1428859]By drive shaft I meant the prop shaft connecting gearbox and diff. The splines get sheared or the spline end splits or breaks off.

    I have had that problem on high mileage road cars , but so far the rally car has not , I use the shaft with the best looking spines and grease them with black moly grease , the front spline is a Toyota spline welded to the original Peugeot shaft



    The cup and cone get polished off after a day or two of rallying. Is a Detroit locker 100% lock? Our rules don't allow that. If not, do you have a part number?

    The Detroit locker does lock 100% as soon as there is a difference in wheel speed and power is applied . it locks with a loud clunck and is a bit unnerving as the car wriggles around as it locks and unlocks, but at speed on a stage you dont notice it as it is properly locked all the time .except when you back off to turn in .

    The Detroit locker is an Peugeot works item , it appears to be a one off modified unit,
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
    Peugeot 504 LTI
    Peugeot 504 Ti
    Citroen SM
    Citroen Light 15
    Peugeot 406 SV 5 speed
    Citroen DS23 EFi Safari
    Toyota Land Criuser V8 Super charged ( to tow the rally car )
    Rally with www.AMSAG.com.au

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rally View Post
    The Detroit locker is an Peugeot works item , it appears to be a one off modified unit,
    Thanks, Andy! This is surprising, all the works spares I have are original Peugeot with extra washers for 60% LSD. Is the Detroit locker unit from the Australian works group?

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Rally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThanosK View Post
    Thanks, Andy! This is surprising, all the works spares I have are original Peugeot with extra washers for 60% LSD. Is the Detroit locker unit from the Australian works group?
    I am not sure of its full history as I do not own the diff , it is on loan from a friend of mine in Melbourne , at the time he loaned it to me it was described as from a Peugeot works car used in the African Safaris.

    It is obviously a " hand made " unit to fit a small Detroit locker into the Peugeot housing and accept the standard drive shafts.
    Peugeot 504 Rally car V6
    Peugeot 504 LTI
    Peugeot 504 Ti
    Citroen SM
    Citroen Light 15
    Peugeot 406 SV 5 speed
    Citroen DS23 EFi Safari
    Toyota Land Criuser V8 Super charged ( to tow the rally car )
    Rally with www.AMSAG.com.au

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