Series 2 405 SRDT Starting probs.

[Simon W]

Hi all,

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When the engine has cooled down for a little while or is cold, it is not starting as it should; it instantly 'kicks' but does not keep going. The glow plugs were recently replaced, I don''t think they are the problem. The only way to get it to run is to keep cranking through the kicks, until it runs...obviously not good. Once started, it runs ok, and starts reasonably well when it has not been shut down for long (still seems initially a little lumpy for a second or so though).

The car has done about 360,000k and I wouldn't be surprised if the injectors have never been out of it (it isn't my car). It has that characteristic diesel knock/rattle, but I think is a bit louder than it should be. It burns a bit of oil, but not much.. (about 500ml every 10,000 k) Also it does blow a fair bit of dark smoke when pushed hard at higher revs, but fuel econ is fine, and it pulls ok. My guess is that a good injector service would sort it.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Simon.

[pugwash]

Try priming the fuel with the rubber ball just by the upper engine mount ,pump the ball till it gets hard ,if that improves the starting ,its dumping fuel back to the tank ,loosing its prime ,air leak in fuel line or from fuel filter mounted on top of thermostat housing its common ,is there fuel leaking from the pump anywhere ,you will get black smoke if you plant it ,until the turbo has time to shove the extra air in to get the fuel air ratio right ,thats normal ,pugs

[pugnut1]

There have been recent posts re 405SRDT glow plugs. Sometimes even new ones don't always work properly - a kind of French Russian roulette. So don't rule them out completely yet. Try other things first perhaps
An injector clean should be on the agenda - this will improve running and performance even if it doesn't fully fix the starting.
As already mentioned, check for fuel lines leaks, especially around the injector lines.

[Pug_405_Mi16]

Gday Simon,

Sounds like it's getting air in the system. Ours was doing very similar recently it would start fine warm or after an hour or so but leave it for a few hours or overnight and it was a no go until it was primed (or started with aerostart in the intake).

Found (and understand it's very common) it was letting air in around the fuel filter housing. Both through the cross on the side and through the o ring. I replaced the ring and filled the cross and it's been fine now for a couple of months.

Our car had just had new glowplugs and relay and they all tested OK. The plugs are fairly easy to test with a multimeter and the relay either works or doesn't. If you have power at the plugs when the light is on it's working.

Good luck
Ben

[Simon W]

Thanks Pugs, Gerry and Ben for your thoughts.

Unfortunately, I can't get my hands on the car until Sunday, and even then it will only be for a few hours.

I believe that it is more likely to be a fuel related issue than glow plugs, but of course, they can't be ruled out. The reason I say this is that the engine chugs immediately every time it is cranked, even when it is stone cold, and it continues doing this when you repeat starting attempts over and over again: crank, fire, stop....crank, fire, stop...crank fire stop...etc etc. The only way to start it, without perhaps using abnormal, under bonnet help (which I don't know yet would help), is to keep very deliberately cranking through the firing until it starts. It could be one or two crook GPs perhaps, which makes sense, but then it can do this (but not as bad) when the engine is still warm.

I am sure that a good injector service would be a good thing anyway, but I wonder if it's likely they would be cause of the real problem...it could well be pump related too.

[Pug_405_Mi16]

Symptoms sound exactly the same as ours, for a start the car was just hard to start and would fire and die 2-3 times before rattling into life eventually it got to the point where it wouldn't start without priming.

On ours it was pulling air and for a start it would self bleed with the starter but as it got worse it didn't work anymore.

Cheers

[lamlam]

It's likely the O ring in the fuel filter housing. Ive had 5 of these cars. It's letting air in causing the fuel pressure to get low. You can use the primer bulb to pump it up and that should help, but that O ring going bad makes it very hard to start.

[Simon W]

It's likely the O ring in the fuel filter housing. Ive had 5 of these cars. It's letting air in causing the fuel pressure to get low. You can use the primer bulb to pump it up and that should help, but that O ring going bad makes it very hard to start.

That's my prime suspect too, hope to get to the bottom of it all on Sunday. Trouble is, all the O ring/seal shops are shut then. I know it's a long shot, but does anyone know the dimensions of the O rings (top and bottom) of the filter housing? I could then get the O rings before the weekend. I saw on another forum that there might be a seal kit for the fuel filter housing, but have never seen one...anyone else heard of this?

Regards and thanx all,

Simon W

[Pug_405_Mi16]

Hello again Simon,

I couldn't get the o ring with the right section from any suppliers here, but that's Hobart so go figure. I ended up getting one genuine from EAI in Melbourne but haven't fitted it yet as a good clean up of the one on the car solved it. A local French car mechanic also told me he often see's them leaking through the white cross on the side of the housing, he suggested a new housing but I just filled it with RTV silicone for now. After all it never gets that cold in Australia that it would ever have to be turned.

I got a price from Regan's in Melbourne of $190 for a complete new housing, ours will be getting one of these before forever.

Cheers
Ben

[Simon W]

Hello again Simon,

I couldn't get the o ring with the right section from any suppliers here, but that's Hobart so go figure. I ended up getting one genuine from EAI in Melbourne but haven't fitted it yet as a good clean up of the one on the car solved it. A local French car mechanic also told me he often see's them leaking through the white cross on the side of the housing, he suggested a new housing but I just filled it with RTV silicone for now. After all it never gets that cold in Australia that it would ever have to be turned.

I got a price from Regan's in Melbourne of $190 for a complete new housing, ours will be getting one of these before forever.

Cheers
Ben

Thanks Ben,

The plot thickens a little; I asked the owner to pump the primer before she started it in the morning, and she says it made no difference; she said it felt pretty firm to squeeze. It's so difficult without the car at hand. It's got me thinking about glow plugs again, but I still suspect air getting in somewhere.

It puts me in mind of a little oversight of mine when I last changed the fuel filter on this car only a little over a week ago; I absent mindedly put the new filter (Purflux) in without its lip seal, and tightened down the cover. When I pumped the primer, fuel bubbled out around the top cover, which means it was getting past the O ring. Of course, I quickly realised my blunder, and put it right. When I then pumped the system up, I could see no sign of any leaks. But if the top cover O ring was doing its job properly, fuel should still not have been able to leak out, even without the filter element seal in place, I would have thought.

BTW, the starting issue developed well before this filter change, and when I primed it after this, it pumped up reasonably firmly, but it was not really what I'd call hard (bulb changed not too long ago as it was perishing internally and contaminating the fuel with tiny flecks of rubber). It started properly after this, but then it was still not cold. I thought that maybe that there had been a bit of air in the system, and I had gotten rid of it, because it reportedly started better the following morning. But it is back to doing the same thing again, maybe getting worse. I am very suspicious of that top O ring.

Regards,

Simon

[Pug_405_Mi16]

Yeah, I'd be saying check the priming yourself.

Our car is primarily used by my parents and when ours was playing up Dad was sure he primed it enough but hadn't. I visited the car and primed it up and away it went.

Do they have a separate O ring in the top of the housing? I have a feeling ours just has the rubber ring around the top of the filter, but I could be wrong. I usually just change the filter and put the new seal in and away it goes. Don't usually even bother bleeding it as it self bleeds the little bit of air that got in the system during the change.

Plugs might be worth checking, a friend of mine had 3 faulty ones after changing them 2 months earlier so don't rule out completely.

Cheers

[Simon W]

Good point Ben.

I thought it did have an O ring, but you might be right. Hopefully, I'll find the problem on Sunday, and all will be revealed.

Cheers

[pugwash]

glow plugs usually go one at a time causing engine to miss at start up,unless there is a problem with the relay ,amazingly air seems to be able to leak in and not fuel out ,the filter isnt under pressure its on the suction side of the pump ,the plastic housing on the filter and the cover are prone to distortion with age and heat ,like trying to drink through a straw with a pin hole in it close to your lips ,if yiu put your tong on top of the straw the air leaking in will allow the straw to empty ,so the deisel runs back to the tank ,the motor tries to start on whats left in the pump ,until enough cranking gets fuel up from the tank ,PUGS

[Simon W]

glow plugs usually go one at a time causing engine to miss at start up,unless there is a problem with the relay ,amazingly air seems to be able to leak in and not fuel out ,the filter isnt under pressure its on the suction side of the pump ,the plastic housing on the filter and the cover are prone to distortion with age and heat ,like trying to drink through a straw with a pin hole in it close to your lips ,if yiu put your tong on top of the straw the air leaking in will allow the straw to empty ,so the deisel runs back to the tank ,the motor tries to start on whats left in the pump ,until enough cranking gets fuel up from the tank ,PUGS

Hi Pugs,

I note you say 'glow plugs usually go one at a time...' and I agree with your logic. But my experience with this particular car was that it started fine one day no missing, but the next day, cooler morning, it just wouldn't start at all, no missing, no fire in any pot at all. Tested the plugs, and all had about the same value, well above 1 ohm. I thought it odd that all the plugs went at the same time (they were the originals), tested the circuit etc and found no probs. In this case, they had all dropped to well below par, but the weather was still quite warm, so the minimal heating they were providing must have been enough, until the temperature dropped.

Plug(s) may well be the culprit again, I'll find out and will post the outcome.

Cheers,


Simon.

[pugwash]

Hi Pugs,

I note you say 'glow plugs usually go one at a time...' and I agree with your logic. But my experience with this particular car was that it started fine one day no missing, but the next day, cooler morning, it just wouldn't start at all, no missing, no fire in any pot at all. Tested the plugs, and all had about the same value, well above 1 ohm. I thought it odd that all the plugs went at the same time (they were the originals), tested the circuit etc and found no probs. In this case, they had all dropped to well below par, but the weather was still quite warm, so the minimal heating they were providing must have been enough, until the temperature dropped.

Plug(s) may well be the culprit again, I'll find out and will post the outcome.

Cheers,


Simon.

speaking of glows ,my wifes srdt has developed a cold start problem ,missing ,blowing white smoke ,first thing in the morning ,checked the glows today ,only one good one ,so i have to eat my words ,but i think it may have been ,2 or 3 for a while ,it just dousnt cut it on one ,parts on the way ,i will be re visiting the recuring rocker cover leak this weekend ,keep you posted ,pugs

[504-504-504]

My 405 SRDT certainly needs a good glow and pause before first start up.
Quite a contrast to the direct injection diesel in my Rodeo.( Isuzu thank you, non of this holden business).
No need to glow it, starts instantly from cold as good as or better than a petrol engine.

Paul.

[Simon W]

speaking of glows ,my wifes srdt has developed a cold start problem ,missing ,blowing white smoke ,first thing in the morning ,checked the glows today ,only one good one ,so i have to eat my words ,but i think it may have been ,2 or 3 for a while ,it just dousnt cut it on one ,parts on the way ,i will be re visiting the recuring rocker cover leak this weekend ,keep you posted ,pugs

Thanks Pugs...I checked the ohms of the last plugs I took out a couple of years ago (yes, I still have them, dog knows why!), and they were all well and truly shot, and would have been for some time, I reckon, yet the car started fine and only rebelled when morning temps went down well into single digit territory.

Last Sunday, I managed to check over the fuel system, it still might be the issue, but it seems pretty sound. Glow system is looming larger in the frame.

Paddy has given me a few invaluable tips from his experience on his, one of which is on the later S2 SRDTs, the power pick off for the plugs comes off the back off the alternator. Apparently, the connector is not big enough, in his opinion, and it thus often fails or loses a decent connection at that point. He moved the connection to the starter motor, with a bigger connector, problem solved (he was having starting probs like this). So I'll be looking at the plugs when I next get the car.

I see you are talking about a leaky tappet cover gasket...same with this one; only a small leak or seep, mostly towards the driver's side, but annoying. A fair bit of mucking around to replace it.

Cheers.

[Simon W]

My 405 SRDT certainly needs a good glow and pause before first start up.
Quite a contrast to the direct injection diesel in my Rodeo.( Isuzu thank you, non of this holden business).
No need to glow it, starts instantly from cold as good as or better than a petrol engine.

Paul.

Sounds a bit like your plugs are getting tired Paul. If they are ok, and it 's a S2, then you might want to check the connection as mentioned in my previous post..might apply to S1 as well, I don't know. I know that when the GPs were good in this SRDT, it started with little more than a flick on the starter the moment the light went out...about 280k on the odo then.

Cheers.

[pugwash]

Sounds a bit like your plugs are getting tired Paul. If they are ok, and it 's a S2, then you might want to check the connection as mentioned in my previous post..might apply to S1 as well, I don't know. I know that when the GPs were good in this SRDT, it started with little more than a flick on the starter the moment the light went out...about 280k on the odo then.

Cheers.

as it turned out it was left outside overnight so at 10.30 am fridaY ,IT REFUSED TO START COMPLETELY ,the glows i ordered pm Thursday from caravell in melbourne arrived before lunch-friday incredible so i fitted them and had a look at the cover ,expecting the bolts to have backed off ,as i had twitched up the right hand one a while back as its accessible with the intercooler fitted ,the other two came up about 1/8th turn so have given it a good clean up ,and will have a look tomorrow as to were iol is coming from last time i did the cover it was leaking down the right hand rear of the engine ended up softening the inner rear suspension bush and the rad hose ,so if your is leaking that end ,dont leave it too long ,ps starts fine now ,pugs

[504-504-504]

You could be right there Simon.
This vehicle has only done 189,000km and is not currently on the road.
Few things to do yet, fix fuel leaks at fuel filter and injector pump and unlock/repair rear brakes.

Paul.

[Simon W]

Hi all,

Thanks for the various ideas, and sorry for not updating sooner.

On closer examination, found one GP not working, and another a little down (unusually, they didn't conform to sods law, they were the easy ones to get at), so they were replaced. Starting improved.

The injectors have now been overhauled, they were long over due and were a bit leaky.

Engine now starting and running nicely, so the problem was a combination of GPs and injectors.

Thanx for the input everyone.

[fiat124brian]

[Lewin from Peugeot spares in Queensland sells an O Ring kit for the filter bodies. It is somewhere around the $18 mark. His phone number is 073354448

Cheers Brian






QUOTE=Pug_405_Mi16;1277401]Hello again Simon,

I couldn't get the o ring with the right section from any suppliers here, but that's Hobart so go figure. I ended up getting one genuine from EAI in Melbourne but haven't fitted it yet as a good clean up of the one on the car solved it. A local French car mechanic also told me he often see's them leaking through the white cross on the side of the housing, he suggested a new housing but I just filled it with RTV silicone for now. After all it never gets that cold in Australia that it would ever have to be turned.

I got a price from Regan's in Melbourne of $190 for a complete new housing, ours will be getting one of these before forever.

Cheers
Ben[/QUOTE]

[Simon W]

[Lewin from Peugeot spares in Queensland sells an O Ring kit for the filter bodies. It is somewhere around the $18 mark. His phone number is 073354448

Cheers Brian






QUOTE=Pug_405_Mi16;1277401]Hello again Simon,

I couldn't get the o ring with the right section from any suppliers here, but that's Hobart so go figure. I ended up getting one genuine from EAI in Melbourne but haven't fitted it yet as a good clean up of the one on the car solved it. A local French car mechanic also told me he often see's them leaking through the white cross on the side of the housing, he suggested a new housing but I just filled it with RTV silicone for now. After all it never gets that cold in Australia that it would ever have to be turned.

I got a price from Regan's in Melbourne of $190 for a complete new housing, ours will be getting one of these before forever.

Cheers
Ben

[/QUOTE]

Thanks Ben, I think the O ring is actually sealing ok. When the primer bulb is squeezed, I can actually see some very slight distortion movement in the housing, but it seems to me that its probably normal, after all, it is being pressurised when it is really designed for the opposite force; suction force. No leaks apparent when engine is in operation, and now that the work has been done, it seems to be going fine.

[kelpiebat]

Morning Simon W; in #14 you state the glow plugs as all being well above 1 ohm. If you are using a low voltage multimeter then those figures are way too high. To get the true reading you must first hold the 2 leads together and then subtract that reading from the reading of the glow plug. For example my meter and leads show 0.4 ohms and a new 407 glow reads 0.8, so the actual resistance of the plug is 0.4 ohms.
Be aware that the glow plug on 12v heats very quickly and that temperature rise causes an immediate increase in the plugs resistance value. If you can borrow a Wheatstone bridge you can get very accurate readings, but I doubt you'll know anybody with one and for your purpose a low voltage unit is fine.

[Simon W]

Morning Simon W; in #14 you state the glow plugs as all being well above 1 ohm. If you are using a low voltage multimeter then those figures are way too high. To get the true reading you must first hold the 2 leads together and then subtract that reading from the reading of the glow plug. For example my meter and leads show 0.4 ohms and a new 407 glow reads 0.8, so the actual resistance of the plug is 0.4 ohms.
Be aware that the glow plug on 12v heats very quickly and that temperature rise causes an immediate increase in the plugs resistance value. If you can borrow a Wheatstone bridge you can get very accurate readings, but I doubt you'll know anybody with one and for your purpose a low voltage unit is fine.

Morning...I think you've misunderstood the context of #14, if you go back and read the other comments, as well as that one, I think you'll see what I mean.

Thanks.