504 electrical quirk... any ideas?
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223

    504 electrical quirk... any ideas?

    The much-travelled 504 Familiale (1982 model) has an interesting bent to it...

    The yellow light at the top of the centre circle in the dash has come on when the ignition is off... and a while later the oil light went on when the ignition is off. Turn on the ignition and both go out, but the ignition works fine.

    Something else seems to be on, however, as I had a near-flat battery this morning.

    Obviously, this is something that has to be fixed...

    Ideas, folks?

    And Dave McBean, can I ring you tonight please?

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,640
    Problem with ignition switch contacts or ignition switch wiring / terminals shorting across between a couple of positive leads would be my first stop Ray. Had a vaguely similar problem once on a 404. Otherwise (and less likely given the current drain) a dashboard printed circuit problem?

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Actually, I had a problem about a year ago where the ignition wouldn't turn the engine off... I had to stall the car.

    I got a switch to put in it, but never had to fit it as it came good before I did so. Maybe this is the next manifestation... and it's got worse, now nothing on the ignition-powered circuits is working, the alternator doesn't seem to be charging... all that happens (when I clutch start the car) is that it runs.

  4. #4
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    It wasn't the ignition switch...

    So I'm desperate for help here! This car has to be running properly tomorrow.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! aquinian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    604
    Ray Bell:
    It wasn't the ignition switch...

    So I'm desperate for help here! This car has to be running properly tomorrow.
    Find all of your earths, disconnect them, clean them thoroughly, put some grease on them, and re-attach. When an earth is not connecting properly you get a feedback effect which produces all sorts of weird symptoms. Stuff starts affecting other things to which it is not usually connected. It is commonly seen on trailer light set-ups.

    My 2c worth.

    Regards,
    John Lane.
    Current: 406 Coupe, 504 Sedan

    Previous: 306XSi, 205GTi, 206Gti, 505 V6, 505 Wagon, 504 Sedan, 504 Wagon, 306Gti6, 306XT, 205Si, Citroen XM, Citroen Xantia

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Presumably something in the ignition circuit then?

    But why when everything is switched off (except the things in the cigarette lighter and the clock) is there lights coming on?

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,640
    MMM. OK.

    The 504 electrical system isn't overly complex so this should be traceable.

    Fusebox?

    Added anything to the dash board, or done any work on it recently that could have damaged the wiring loom?

    I'd be looking more at a short in the "powered" side of the circuits, rather than an earth. A bad earth shouldn't lead to the choke warning light (the yellow light you mention) coming on when the ignition is off. (That's one of the reasons why I suspected the ignition switch internal contacts.)

    One quick trick that can help sometimes is to turn everything off and then check for current flow across each of the fuses (ideally with a multimeter, but a test light will do) in turn (the clock on fuse 2 might carry a bit of current, but nothing else should be "live" if everything is turned of on a 504).

    Not certain that the wagon is the same as the sedan, but working from left to right across the fuse box you should be able to ignore the circuits controlled by fuse 1 and 2. Fuse 3 and fuse 5 are the circuits I'd be thinking about most. 3 controls things like the stop lights , reversing lights , fan and , from memory, some of the engine circuitary. Fuse 5 handles the voltmeter, gauges and warning lights, including the choke warning light. (F4 are the heaters, washers wipers etc)

    What works and what doesn't? What stays on when it shouldn't (does the fuel gauge stay on as well as the choke warning light when the ignition is off, for example.)

    Its much easier to check this stuff if the battery is charged up. You can then pull fuses, disconnect specific items etc to try and track it down.

    For the choke light to have been going on with the ignition off it had to be pulling the power from somewhere. Think of possible locations. Where could bad insulation or a loose connector somewhere be feeding current into that particular circuit when the ignition is off? (haven't got a 504 wiring diagram here at present).

    Or how about a defective charging regulator (the thing mounted on the firewall on sedans) feeding current back into the system somehow? Doesn't seem likely really.

    Good luck.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 30 May 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  8. #8
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Thanks Rod... I'll check that out... I've printed your post so I can read it when I'm out at the car...

    Electricals are not my bag at all!

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    310
    Check you have no cross wiring. Check for earth leaks. 504s wiring is really very simply there is no real mystries to it. You can solve most problem with small wonder light with allegator clips on both terminals.

    Als

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Not that simple... this thing is full of wires.

    It's got dual air conditioning, has an alarm fitted that is operated from every opening cavity except the fuel tank flap.

    There's also the fact that it's had the alternator moved to get it to the underside of the engine... wires everywhere on it!

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,640
    Erghh. All those extra wires can make this much trickier. An alarm, eh? That opens up a whole new bunch of possibilities if the car has an immobiliser fitted. Do you want the alarm? I'd be pulling it out if you don't need it and trying to return the wiring to its original state.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 30 May 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    The alarm's been disarmed for years... but the wires are still there.

    Found it, thanks, Rod... and by using your list. When you headed me for the fusebox it was too hard to start with, but I thought I'd start looking at the wiring to the various elements you mentioned. First thing I looked at was the fan, but it wasn't easy, and as I put my head under the car to start that I found...

    Well, it was a great pile of wires hanging down on the left hand side, under the injection pump.

    What do you know? All the wires that head off to the alternator were burned through!

    Separated the wires, hooked up the battery, the lights are off. Now it's just a matter of reconnecting these burned ends, ensuring their secure insulation and checking to see if the alternator still works.

    Thanks for the help all!

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,640
    That's great Ray.

    The question now is "Why". Did they just suffer mechnical damage of some sort, or cracked uop insulation, or did one of them overheat and take the others with it. If it was the later then you'll need to work out which one went first , and what caused it to overheat. (a stuck electric fan, for example, might do this) . So take a good hard look at them while you are working on it, and try to work out which one went where.

    Its also possible that something like a dead regulator could have allowed to much current flow in teh charging circuit etc. Has the battery been using a lot of water recently? (one common sign of overcharging)

    Good luck

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  14. #14
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Only the alternator wires (all three of them) and the oil light wire were involved, Rod...

    I suspect it's a mechanical thing... rubbing on something, wore through the insulation.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,640
    Probably right, especially if the alt has been relocated. Might well have blown the diodes as a result of the short though.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Parkes - N.S.W - Australia - Earth
    Posts
    12,269
    alternator's do not like spinning without the output side going to something
    in other words they should never run dry
    if they do they normally go blewy internally and hence you may need another one to place in there

    Ray
    remember when you rang me the other day about this i mentioned your symptoms sounded like a lack of charge ????

    <small>[ 30 May 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: pugrambo ]</small>
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    It seems to be charging, though I can't be certain...

    Thing is, as long as it survived the original short, there was no power exciting it as it spun either, so it wouldn't have been generting power that needed to be dissipated.

    Fingers are crossed... I'm going for another drive later.

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Oh, I wonder if this is related? Seems to be...

    The indicators aren't working.

    Any ideas?

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,640
    Ray Bell:
    Oh, I wonder if this is related? Seems to be...

    The indicators aren't working.

    Any ideas?
    Maybe that ciurcuit copped a full wack of power somewhere along the way, Ray. What does the fuse look like? Alternatively maybe you have just dislodged a connector while looking for the problem.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 4008 2016Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, (deadish), - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 406 ST 1997, 307 XSE, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Sydney NSW Australia
    Posts
    137
    Ray Bell:
    It seems to be charging, though I can't be certain...

    Fingers are crossed... I'm going for another drive later.
    Ray,

    All you need is a decent voltmeter across the battery terminals to tell if the alternator is charging. Anywhere above 13.8 volts (no load on battery) should be ok with the engine revved moderately. The actual voltage depends on the setting of the regulator diode.

    Denis

  21. #21
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Thanks gents... nice of you to help...

    I'll be checking the fuses first of course, (terrible job in this car! Behind the A/C controls!), and I'll get onto the voltmeter thing when I go over to the rambo's later today... I think he has one...

    But I'm confident it's charging, took it for a run last night, no sign of low battery, lights didn't dim, all that.

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Uh... yeah... bright, eh?

    There was a blown fuse, but I think it had nothing to do with it because the blinkers still didn't work all the way to Parkes.

    There, of course, pugrambo reminded me of his former advice on this subject, which is posted here:

    <a href="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000010" target="_blank">http://www.aussiefrogs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000010</a>

    Duhh!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •